Which logical fallacies are these?

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The discussion revolves around the frustration of an individual who feels their roommates dismiss their original thoughts and ideas as being uncreative or derived from books. The individual shares personal anecdotes where they attempted to apply learned concepts in everyday situations, only to be met with ridicule and comments like "not from a book." This led to feelings of being discredited and a belief that they were being told not to think for themselves. The conversation highlights the tension between academic knowledge and casual, everyday discourse, suggesting that the roommates may not appreciate the depth of the individual's analytical thinking. Several participants in the discussion advise the individual to adapt their communication style to their audience, emphasizing the importance of context in conversations. They suggest that the roommates are likely poking fun rather than genuinely critiquing the individual's thought process. Overall, the dialogue underscores the challenge of balancing intellectual discourse with social interactions, and the need for understanding one's audience to foster better communication.
  • #31
What do you want me to say here?

"Your phrase 'concepualize the world around you' is so good, your housemates thought it must be from a book"?

You are comparing completely random subjects. The step between cell phones and radios is the development of the NEW technology. You just replaced one word with another. I haven't said don't do it, I haven't said don't use it. Judging by the OP neither did your friends. They're just yanking your chain. And you are overthinking it. You don't seem to take criticism well.

Who has said to you and in those words "you are not allowed to think for yourself"? You are just taking what they say as that. Which is an unscientific way to work. You are assuming that is what it means when it looks like nothing more than a bit of a laugh. The guy laughed when he made the statements, aka not being serious given the context.
 
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  • #32
As Dave said, friends are usually either drinking/eating/chilling friends, or intellectual colleagues. This seems like a case for the former, so I wouldn't take it to heart. Half the time my 2nd roommate in berkeley (and even when I talk to him now after 4 years) tells me that I'm not going to make money doing astronomy, that it's all hopeless and I should just be doing web design all of my life. This is a far more extreme example to your own, but I had to learn not to take his bullshizzle to heart. He's not my intellectual colleague, he's my drinking/hanging out/relaxing buddy.

Anyways, as for your examples. I'm just going to pick out one that stood out.

27Thousand said:
2. Another time I saw one of my roommates walking up the stairs. I thought to myself that if each time he made it half way up the stairs and it put him back at the bottom again, he probably would give up eventually, "operant conditioning extinction". Then the roommate who earlier said not from a book asked me why the other roommate went up the stairs. I was taking a behavioral analysis class that semester and was trying to apply what I was learning in out of the ordinary situations. I said, "He took the first step up the stairs because it was reinforced by the opportunity to take a step up the next stair which was reinforced by the opportunity for the next stair, creating a chaining behavior to get to the top and into his bedroom." My roommate responded, "That's not creative! Be creative! LOL" Me, "What do you think is creative?" Him, "He was tired, that's why he went up the stairs." I don't get it, you hear people all the time say that such and such is tired? If I want to apply what I learn in unusual ways, why is that being less original then someone giving typical layman responses? Do you ever try to apply what you learn? Does that mean you should forget everything you know so that you can be creative? I felt like he was saying that I shouldn't have any thoughts or feelings. If someone told you not to eat breakfeast because others have thought of breakfeast before and you need to be creative, what would you think? I could be wrong, but didn't Einstein say he wasn't trying create, but rather make new discoveries?

You did give a textbook response. Why is the sky blue? If you said 'because of rayleigh scattering', then that would be your textbook response. If you said something like 'because ethereal dwarves had a committee meeting and decided that blue would be the best color as it matched their tabards", would have been the more amusing/weird/creative response. I think the latter is what your friend was expecting and you had given him the former.

I wouldn't try to apply your knowledge to people who don't appreciate your intellect/understanding of the world. They are more your buddies for when you need to turn your brain off (no offense).
 
  • #33
jarednjames said:
What do you want me to say here?

"Your phrase 'concepualize the world around you' is so good, your housemates thought it must be from a book"?

You are comparing completely random subjects. The step between cell phones and radios is the development of the NEW technology. You just replaced one word with another. I haven't said don't do it, I haven't said don't use it. Judging by the OP neither did your friends. They're just yanking your chain. And you are overthinking it. You don't seem to take criticism well.

Who has said to you and in those words "you are not allowed to think for yourself"? You are just taking what they say as that. Which is an unscientific way to work. You are assuming that is what it means when it looks like nothing more than a bit of a laugh. The guy laughed when he made the statements, aka not being serious given the context.

I'm not saying that "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me" is a good phrase.

I'm just saying that if someone came to the forum frustrated that someone keeps saying they can't use the fridge because fridge is found in a dictionary, you'd say that's stupid. If someone raises their hand saying, "I'm just trying to understand. Please explain this to me" why is that any less from a book/messed up than "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me", when that's how I really felt? It's the same thing, just a few of the words were changed around. If in class you raised your hand saying, "I don't think I understand," why is that any less from a book than if you were to raise a hand saying, "I don't think I conceptualize what you're saying"?

That's why I feel discredited as a human being.
 
  • #34
protonchain said:
As Dave said, friends are usually either drinking/eating/chilling friends, or intellectual colleagues. This seems like a case for the former, so I wouldn't take it to heart. Half the time my 2nd roommate in berkeley (and even when I talk to him now after 4 years) tells me that I'm not going to make money doing astronomy, that it's all hopeless and I should just be doing web design all of my life. This is a far more extreme example to your own, but I had to learn not to take his bullshizzle to heart. He's not my intellectual colleague, he's my drinking/hanging out/relaxing buddy.

Anyways, as for your examples. I'm just going to pick out one that stood out.



You did give a textbook response. Why is the sky blue? If you said 'because of rayleigh scattering', then that would be your textbook response. If you said something like 'because ethereal dwarves had a committee meeting and decided that blue would be the best color as it matched their tabards", would have been the more amusing/weird/creative response. I think the latter is what your friend was expecting and you had given him the former.

I wouldn't try to apply your knowledge to people who don't appreciate your intellect/understanding of the world. They are more your buddies for when you need to turn your brain off (no offense).

So how would you feel if someone asks you a question, then you give an answer where you use something that you learned/makes sense to you in an out of the ordinary way, but still works, then the person who asked you said you weren't being creative and then gave an average Joe answer instead?

You hear the average Joe say all the time, "He's tired." In a class where you learn about operant conditioning, the response I gave was an example that people don't usually associate with operant conditioning. It may not be entertaining, but it's not a usual operant conditioning answer.

An invention shouldn't only be creative, it also needs to work. A scientific discovery also needs to work. The operant conditioning answer I gave can be tested. Also for something to be creative, I could be wrong, but it's not supposed to be copying what others say. Isn't "He's tired" more likely to be your typical response? My answer may not have been funny, but how was it less original (more thinking for myself involved) than his response? Anyway, that's not the point. I just feel he's discrediting me as a human being. If each time you give an answer when someone asks for it, how would you feel if they always said, "Be creative, not from a book"? If you said, "I think politics should be this way, because such and such happened in the past," him, "Be creative, and not from a book. Such and such happening in the past is from a book! Think out of a vacuum."

Do you see where I'm coming from?
 
  • #35
Right over to everyone else, I give up. This is over thinking and complication if I've ever seen it.

Do you know what conceptualise means? I've read the definition and I'm not sure it fits exactly into what you want it to. (That's just my interpretation of the definition, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I think you are just trying to use a big word.
 
  • #36
jarednjames said:
Right over to everyone else, I give up. This is over thinking and complication if I've ever seen it.

Okay Jared, so that you can understand my perspective, if someone told you that others here may also be thinking the same thing, and that you have to be creative by coming up with an idea that no one else has ever thought of, wouldn't that response drive you crazy? So that's why I felt discredited as a human being in those situations. No one thinks out of a vacuum, and most responses aren't ideas that no one has ever thought of. So if someone discredited you that way, then you'd understand where I'm coming from.
 
  • #37
Why would that bother you? I'm spending four years in university to learn how to apply the knowledge gained to a job. I am taught what others discovered, I am not required to do any more than understand it. In a job (for me it would be engineering related) I may be expected to come up with solutions to unique situations, and so creative thinking would be required. If someone told me to be creative and think of something new and unique I would see this as a challenge and would take it in my stride. These people obviously expect me to be coming up with new ideas and by asking me, they clearly feel I am clever enough and creative enough to do so. In a job, as I said above, it can be expected of you.
All through school I was told to 'think outside the box'.

These people obviously expect original ideas from you. They expect you to come up with more creative ideas. Surely that just means they think highly of you? But your answer sounded silly to them (as pointed out before, it obviously wasn't what they expected) and so they mock you for it. Could say self inflicted.

You are over complicating this and putting far too much thought into it. As pointed out before, people don't want a textbook psych response if they aren't your peers they want a witty repsonse or something.

All of this and you could have summarised into two and a half lines of text that is easy to grasp what you want.
 
  • #38
27Thousand said:
So how would you feel if someone asks you a question, then you give an answer where you use something that you learned/makes sense to you in an out of the ordinary way, but still works, then the person who asked you said you weren't being creative and then gave an average Joe answer instead?

You hear the average Joe say all the time, "He's tired." In a class where you learn about operant conditioning, the response I gave was an example that people don't usually associate with operant conditioning. It may not be entertaining, but it's not a usual operant conditioning answer.

An invention shouldn't only be creative, it also needs to work. A scientific discovery also needs to work. The operant conditioning answer I gave can be tested. Also for something to be creative, I could be wrong, but it's not supposed to be copying what others say. Isn't "He's tired" more likely to be your typical response? My answer may not have been funny, but how was it less original (more thinking for myself involved) than his response? Anyway, that's not the point. I just feel he's discrediting me as a human being. If each time you give an answer when someone asks for it, how would you feel if they always said, "Be creative, not from a book"? If you said, "I think politics should be this way, because such and such happened in the past," him, "Be creative, and not from a book. Such and such happening in the past is from a book! Think out of a vacuum."

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I know my friends and know exactly what kind of responses they want. In fact I tailor my jokes around to suit their sense of humor. My friend John likes random blunt statements. My other friend Chris likes more witty but at the same time random statements and will laugh at anything that John is usually laughing at. My Indian friend Mandeep likes more jokes about imitation and real life blunt frank truth.

So when I hang with them, I'm almost always joking, there's almost never a moment when I'm serious with my responses. They are after all, friends. If this was my mentor I would be both serious and humorous (since he's also an insanely funny guy).

This is why I don't understand your sense of logic. I don't understand where you're coming from, because when someone asks me these sorts of questions, they expect a witty or stupidly funny response. Thats what your friends are expecting from you. They're not homework, they're not your exams, they're not your lecture discussion group. They want to have fun, and they want you to use your intellect to come up with a witty or creative response, not just regurgitate stuff you learned from lectures.

You need to open your mind, you're restricting yourself to the boundaries of your field of interest. While it is impressive that you have an ambition, a goal, and are motivated to pursue this field, it is not impressive to friends, who are looking to have fun. You need to relax, you need to think creatively, you need to watch stand up comedy and learn and admire. If you like taking ideas from others and applying it, try applying stand up comedians' jokes through your own brain and logic, and I'm sure your friends will appreciate that.
 
  • #39
Firstly, I have to agree with pretty much everything Jared, proton and Dave have said here. Yet none of us seem to be able to get through to you. I'll give it another shot with some random hits.
27Thousand said:
Okay Jared, so that you can understand my perspective, if someone told you that others here may also be thinking the same thing, and that you have to be creative by coming up with an idea that no one else has ever thought of, wouldn't that response drive you crazy?
Excuse the profanity, but why the **** would it drive me crazy? On the other hand, your response is driving me crazy since you seem utterly focused on being accepted by chance strangers (that's what roommates are) on your own terms.

You claimed in an earlier response that your 'operant conditioning' answer was not egocentric. Get real. Someone asks you a basic question and you reply with something specifically related to your classwork and your interest. You can't get much more egocentric.

So that's why I felt discredited as a human being in those situations. No one thinks out of a vacuum, and most responses aren't ideas that no one has ever thought of. So if someone discredited you that way, then you'd understand where I'm coming from.
Here is what you need to do. Grow up. It is a painful process, but necessary and most people eventually manage it. You cannot be loved by everyone. You cannot be admired by everyone. You certainly can't achieve this if you insist it be done on your terms.

No one can discredit you as a human being except yourself. So stop reading that interpretation into your friends' remarks.

If you must give intense, 'creative' answers then try giving multi-level answers. On one level they satisfy the mundane, objective expectation. On another level they address your desire to be inventive.

In your own example it could go like this.
Roommate: "Why did Fred go upstairs."
You: "Smooth operator Fred? I think he's trying to get into condition."

Your roommate gets a 'normal' response and you can sit there smugly knowing you've worked in the idea of operant conditioning into your answer. As a student and in my early twenties I used to delight in saying things that would mean three different things to different members of the group I was talking to. That wore off when I no longer needed to feel superior.
 
  • #40
HallsofIvy said:
Anyone who says "LOL" shouldn't be listened to anyway!

It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.
 
  • #41
Blenton said:
It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.

Just to point out, the OP specified it was him that used LOL to describe the person laughing. But yes, I agree with you. I hate the phrase, you will never see me using it in conversation (online/offline unless quoting someone). The way some people use it you'd think they spent the whole of their time laughing. Anyhow, yeah it's a new thing people will have to get used to. Still won't see me using it though.

Right, cheers Ophiolite, Dave and Proton for the responses, I agree totally with them and hopefully 27thousand will grasp it soon.

27thousand, you are a psych student (from what I gather) and you seem to like to apply your knowledge and understand everything. I would have thought that this would be a perfect situation for you to do this and you should have been able to work this out for yourself. Thinking about why they say those things and trying to 'conceptualize' the reasons for it (consider the situations you were in when they happened and what you could have done wrong to warrant the response). That would be applying your knowledge to real life situations and would allow you to come up with your own reason as to why they do it. And how you can solve it.

Just please try to understand what we are saying. You overthink even the simplest of situations and even though you consider your response perfectly valid, it does not make it so. In a group of peers by all means, go for it, give the technical answers and impress them, spark up conversation on it. But in a social situation with friends/housemates or anyone not in your field, you should go for the response they want. A comical one, a simple 'common sense' one etc.
 
  • #42
Blenton said:
It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.
But it makes one wonder why 27K can so easily roll with that yet takes every OTHER thing his roommates say so seriously.

27K: your roommates cannot make you feel discredited as a human being. What they can do is find a wekaness in your own self-confidence and tease you about it unmercifully.
 
  • #43
DaveC426913 said:
But it makes one wonder why 27K can so easily roll with that yet takes every OTHER thing his roommates say so seriously.

27K: your roommates cannot make you feel discredited as a human being. What they can do is find a wekaness in your own self-confidence and tease you about it unmercifully.

I think the fact the guy laughed shows he is joking or messing around.
 
  • #44
Holy hell. I have never seen such useless worrying. Who gives a rat's *** what they were 'trying to tell [you] to do'? They sound like morons anyways, and hardly deserving of a kick in the boot, much less that massive, weird rant you just posted against them.
 
  • #45
What an unoriginal thread topic. Seriously, to the OP... try to be more creative or something. Jeez.
 
  • #46
AUMathTutor said:
What an unoriginal thread topic. Seriously, to the OP... try to be more creative or something. Jeez.

:biggrin:
You guys are awful.
 
  • #47
jarednjames said:
Do you know what conceptualise means? I've read the definition and I'm not sure it fits exactly into what you want it to. (That's just my interpretation of the definition, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

"Conceptualize" means to turn into a concept. The dictionary says to think about something in a way that's conceptual. So rather than seeing route details, you see "concepts". So when I said I was trying to conceptualize my world, I was trying to think intuitively about things. Yes I agree, the phrase "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me" isn't very advanced, but it was still my real feelings. If he didn't like the wording, why didn't he just say, "Although I think it's good to understand things, I don't like how you just worded that," rather than say, "Not from a book"? If he didn't like that I was trying to understand things, why didn't he just say that rather than saying not from a book? Those were my real thoughts/feelings.

Since it was a phrase that popped up in my head without thinking much about it, that's why I said I thought he was discrediting me as a person. One of the reasons I brought example up on this forum is because I thought it would be obvious to others that it wasn't from a book, and I'm trying to figure out for myself what to say in the future if someone dismisses my thoughts in that manner. I wasn't concerned that he didn't agree with what my thoughts were, but rather said it wasn't my own idea, as a way to dismiss what I was saying. I mean, what would you think if you posted a question or stated a speculation about physics, and rather than others saying they don't like your thought, they say "Not from a book, come up with your own idea", when in reality it is a thought you're thinking? Even if your thought isn't very advanced, wouldn't you just rather have them say they don't like your idea or why they don't agree with it?
 
  • #48
Just read the previous posts. Why the **** does it matter? He was mocking you. You overthink and take things far too seriously. Your responses for the situations are far too complicated and unrequired. Why did you feel the need to give him the speech when the guy went upstairs instead of just saying "to the toilet" of something? Can you not see it? He is taking the **** as you are being far too serious in situations which don't require it. You are being 'nerdy'. You are giving them the reasons to mock you.
 
  • #49
27Thousand said:
Do you ever get the feeling that people tell you not to think for yourself? How do you personally deal with situations like these? :

1. When I was a kid, I would watch a Science show where they'd use the phrase "Understanding the World Around You." So then I made "my own" phrase, "Conceptualize the world around you." I never read that from a book, I made that phrase up on my own. So decades later, I was with roommates at college. When talking with one of the roommates, I said, "Oh, I'm just trying to 'conceptualize' the world around me." He said, "Uh uh uh, not from a book, LOL!" Then I said, "That's not from a book!" Him, "Not from a book, LOL!" Any intelligent person knows that's not from a book, and I felt like he was trying to say I can't have any thoughts or feelings of my own since everything is automatically from a book. I mean, how would you respond if someone told you that you can't go to the grocery store because it's found in a dictionary? Then later that day, he was like, "I'm going to be creative, LOL." Then he quoted some lines from the movie Princess Bride. I don't understand, you hear people all the time quote lines from Princess Bride/other movies and I'm pretty sure they're found in a book. Why is "Conceptualize the world around me" any worse, when I haven't seen it in a book? Am I wrong if something doesn't seem right here?

2. Another time I saw one of my roommates walking up the stairs. I thought to myself that if each time he made it half way up the stairs and it put him back at the bottom again, he probably would give up eventually, "operant conditioning extinction". Then the roommate who earlier said not from a book asked me why the other roommate went up the stairs. I was taking a behavioral analysis class that semester and was trying to apply what I was learning in out of the ordinary situations. I said, "He took the first step up the stairs because it was reinforced by the opportunity to take a step up the next stair which was reinforced by the opportunity for the next stair, creating a chaining behavior to get to the top and into his bedroom." My roommate responded, "That's not creative! Be creative! LOL" Me, "What do you think is creative?" Him, "He was tired, that's why he went up the stairs." I don't get it, you hear people all the time say that such and such is tired? If I want to apply what I learn in unusual ways, why is that being less original then someone giving typical layman responses? Do you ever try to apply what you learn? Does that mean you should forget everything you know so that you can be creative? I felt like he was saying that I shouldn't have any thoughts or feelings. If someone told you not to eat breakfeast because others have thought of breakfeast before and you need to be creative, what would you think? I could be wrong, but didn't Einstein say he wasn't trying create, but rather make new discoveries?

3. One last situation, but first some background information: In my A.P. high school psychology class, we learned that there used to be some people who believed evil spirits caused mental disorders. They then would drill holes in the heads of the person acting crazy and it would make them stop acting weird, in reality brain damage, so they thought that it released the evil spirits and so called "confirmed what they believed". So years later, with these same roommates, one of them asked me what I thought the main weakness of the scientific method was. Me, "It's always possible that there is another theory out there that can explain the same exact evidence better." Him, "Well, all you have to do is rule out all other theories." Then I said no matter how hard you try it's always possible there's another possibility, and made up my own example, using how they thought there were evil spirits, etc, and how you could hypothetically set up an experiment saying, "If the theory that evil spirits are causing it is true, then we'd predict the observation of drilling in their heads will release the evil spirits causing them to stop acting weird. However, you wouldn't prove because the better explanation would be that there was really brain damage, which they weren't able to find out until hundreds of years later." (I never saw that example from a book) Then my roommate said, "Nope, not from a book." Me, "That's not from a book, I made up that example myself!" Him, "Not from a book! Anyway, the weakness of the Scientific Method is that you come up with a null hypothesis, and it's always possible that the null may be true." That seemed unfair, because you hear about the null hypothesis all the time in college textbooks, and scientific theories change more often because they find a better theory for the evidence rather than finding out the null is true. Then later he was talking about a study where they found people are more attracted to symmetrical faces, and you hear about those studies all the time from "books".

I don't understand? I could be wrong, but why does a "book" matter? Galileo said the world revolved around the sun, but that wasn't his idea. He "read" about it from Copernicus, "from a book", and then worked it out for himself. Does that mean he was a bad person?

Are there any logical fallacies/flaws in thinking? How do you have better communication in these situations?

First of all, Albert Einstein said he wasn't trying to create the world, but rather discover it. You are right on that one dude. Galileo said he didn't just care about being creative, but also wanted to understand things for himself.

Okay, now let's see how a reasonable person thinks. :wink:

First example: You're right. If he says that you can't have any thoughts or feelings of your own because every human thought is found in a book, then I don't know why he thinks he's that intelligent. You're correct, Princess Bride is often quoted, making him a just fulfilling the status quo maniac. ;) I've also never heard someone use the phrase conceptualize the world around them before. So I wouldn't put your trust in his intelligence. You're screwed up socially, and he's screwed up in creativity!

Example two: He says the other dude was tired? Hmmm... Yes people do say that all the time, maintaining the status quo. I even say it myself. You applied what you learned from college in a unique, even if socially awkward, way. A lot of creative genius are great at brainstorming and coming up with far out ideas. Your reinforcing steps example also seems to work when you try the thought experiment route. Ask your roommate what he thinks about figuring things out for himself!

Third example: Every intelligent person who breathes knows the null hypothesis is found in a book. The hypothetical experiment you gave is not found in a book. If anything, I'd say the problem was it was too far out in left field and not in a book. Therefore, a reasonable and thinking person would say your roommate is not intelligent enough to even realize his error!

Fast food services seems to be a future career goal for your roommate, as well as it should be! :biggrin:
 
  • #50
Wow physics dude30, it's like you joined the forum just to reply (and give support) to this thread...
You sure you're not 27thousand in disguise?

Anyhow, the roommate didn't state he shouldn't have thoughts and feelings of his own, 27thousand simply took that to be what he meant. Clearly overthinking the situation, the roommate was simply mocking him. Why does the roommate intelligence come into this? I'm doing a degree in engineering and think this is utter rubbish what the OP is talking about. I don't consider myself a genius, far from it, but I would certainly say I am somewhat intelligent.

What's all this status quo stuff? If someone asks "why did he go upstairs" and all they wanted to know was the reason, aka "to sleep" they don't want and certainly won't appreciate a long-winded textbook psych reply (possibly might if they are in the same field as you).

How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years. They first believed drilling 'released the evil spirits', and then when better technology and new ideas came out it was realized that it simply causes brain damage. That is how it happened. That is how they discovered it. There is nothing "not found in a book" about it. I don't even see the experiment, I just see a description of the discovery it causes brain damage not releases spirits. Nothing "far too left field". Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

Well apparently, unless you think 27thousands overthinking and inability to adjust to different social situations (differentiating between being with peers and friends) is great and his way of looking at the responses given by the roommates is correct, you are going to work in a fast food joint!

Stupidest statement I've seen in a while, even for me.

I still think it's 27thousand, seems a strange response and a weird thread to sign up to post in (I noticed no other posts by this person except this one).
 
  • #51
physicsdude30 said:
First of all, Albert Einstein said he wasn't trying to create the world, but rather discover it. You are right on that one dude. Galileo said he didn't just care about being creative, but also wanted to understand things for himself.

Okay, now let's see how a reasonable person thinks. :wink:

First example: You're right. If he says that you can't have any thoughts or feelings of your own because every human thought is found in a book, then I don't know why he thinks he's that intelligent. You're correct, Princess Bride is often quoted, making him a just fulfilling the status quo maniac. ;) I've also never heard someone use the phrase conceptualize the world around them before. So I wouldn't put your trust in his intelligence. You're screwed up socially, and he's screwed up in creativity!

Example two: He says the other dude was tired? Hmmm... Yes people do say that all the time, maintaining the status quo. I even say it myself. You applied what you learned from college in a unique, even if socially awkward, way. A lot of creative genius are great at brainstorming and coming up with far out ideas. Your reinforcing steps example also seems to work when you try the thought experiment route. Ask your roommate what he thinks about figuring things out for himself!

Third example: Every intelligent person who breathes knows the null hypothesis is found in a book. The hypothetical experiment you gave is not found in a book. If anything, I'd say the problem was it was too far out in left field and not in a book. Therefore, a reasonable and thinking person would say your roommate is not intelligent enough to even realize his error!

Fast food services seems to be a future career goal for your roommate, as well as it should be! :biggrin:

Finally, someone is finally smart enough to realize that it's not from a book!
 
  • #52
jarednjames said:
How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years.

Says who? Where are your sources this scientific method experiment actually happened? All my sources say it didn't. I think I agree with the other user that my example three was too far in left field.

I took a historical event that I never saw in a book, but rather had heard from another person (so I don't even know if it happened). Then using imaginative play, I made up a hypothetical experiment out of it, making up a control and experimental group. I thought to myself that this could be a possibility of how the scientific method could go wrong, since you can always find an alternative theory that explains the evidence better. Since the experiment was never performed, but just my imagination, I don't know why you say it was real? No scientist would ever dream of making an experiment like that. I've never ever heard anyone using that example of how the scientific method can go wrong. The example I made up is too cheesy to be from a book. Why are you still saying I'm just quoting a book?

jarednjames said:
I'm doing a degree in engineering and think this is utter rubbish what the OP is talking about.

And it's "utter rubbish" that my personal thought at the time "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me" and the drilling holes in the head experiment are found in books! The hypothetical experiment from example three is too cheesy to be found in a book! I'm still not understanding why you're actually under the impression that it's found in a book? I think that's very strange. I also think it's bizarre that you think I'm other people on this thread. I don't get why you think the null hypothesis answer my roommate gave is not in a book, and less from a book? Given the context that he talked about the null, why was my answer socially inappropriate? Especially when he asked me himself what the main weakness of the scientific method is?
 
  • #53
Ophiolite said:
If you must give intense, 'creative' answers then try giving multi-level answers. On one level they satisfy the mundane, objective expectation. On another level they address your desire to be inventive.

I like your answer of multi-level answers. I think that's good.

I just don't understand why you guys even think my examples 1 and 3 are from books? I made them up myself, without any books. Example three, the context of the situation is my roommate's answer used the null hypothesis, which is scholarly and from a book. You hear people say the null hypothesis possibly being true is a weakness of the scientific method all the time. Later he even brought up studies about symmetrical faces being seen as more attractive, which is from a book. I don't understand why you think my answer for example three was from a book, and not appropriate for the context?
 
  • #54
Is this thread about how your roommates were treating you, or is this thread about your ideas and whether they came from a book?

Can you please restate the primary question?
 
  • #55
protonchain said:
This is why I don't understand your sense of logic...not just regurgitate stuff you learned from lectures.

I still don't understand why you think examples 1 & 3 is material regurgitated? Which lecture/book is "conceptualize the world around me" from? Example three, where's that hypothetical experiment from (which doesn't exist, but just my imaginative play)? The historical event, of drilling in the holes, which I changed around, which book is that from? Given the response my roommate gave in example three, using the null hypothesis, why was my response less an idea that I actually thought of/socially inappropriate? Why wouldn't I feel dismissed as a person? Was example one really that socially inappropriate? How do you know if something is found in a book, especially if you know for sure you've never seen it in a book? If I get a glass of water, do I tell myself I can't do that because it could possibly be from a book, and I don't know for sure? Do you see my train of thought?
 
  • #56
DaveC426913 said:
Is this thread about how your roommates were treating you, or is this thread about your ideas and whether they came from a book?

Can you please restate the primary question?

Mostly if they came from a book. Then secondly, how I could then let them know it's not really from a book, and letting them know that in a socially appropriate way. I know that many may not agree with the ideas I said in the three examples, and they're not necessarily profound (many creative people keep on brainstorming until something good actually comes up). I just am looking for ideas on how to let people know an idea is something I thought actually thought up, rather than regurgitated, when that's the case. And yes, I know I can work on making things more entertaining, but I don't think not entertaining means that I'm not actually thinking of an idea myself.

I know that example number two may have been overbearing socially, and I probably shouldn't have brought that particular one out of the three up, but I don't think I was mindlessly speaking to them.

So in other words, yes if it is from a book, and how to have better interpersonal communication skills in letting someone know something is an idea I thought of, even if they may not necessarily agree with the idea. I just think something should stand on it's own merits, rather than someone discrediting you because they think you may not be the only person to think of the idea.
 
  • #57
27Thousand said:
So in other words, yes if it is from a book, and how to have better interpersonal communication skills in letting someone know something is an idea I thought of, even if they may not necessarily agree with the idea.
OK. On the off-chance your social situation has not changed and is still valid: ask your friend what he is hearing - what clues he is getting specifically - that make him think these ideas are coming from a book as opposed to your own head. How would he recognize that an idea you stated was not from a book?
 
  • #58
To me "conceptualize the world around you" sounds like something that is probably said thousands of times a day as a passing statement - nobody thought it was good enough to claim as their own - it certainly isn't a profound thing to say.

How do you know if something is found in a book, especially if you know for sure you've never seen it in a book?

Just because you've not seen it in a book before doesn't mean that it cannot possibly be http://books.google.com/books?id=mF...b2_Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4".

If I get a glass of water, do I tell myself I can't do that because it could possibly be from a book, and I don't know for sure?

Just because it is in a book doesn't make it bad or wrong.

You know that, I know that, everybody knows that; so what? Is that the reaffirmation that you were after?
 
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  • #59
billiards said:
To me "conceptualize the world around you" sounds like something that is probably said thousands of times a day as a passing statement - nobody thought it was good enough to claim as their own - it certainly isn't a profound thing to say.
Just because you've not seen it in a book before doesn't mean that it cannot possibly be http://books.google.com/books?id=mF...b2_Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4".
Just because it is in a book doesn't make it bad or wrong.

You know that, I know that, everybody knows that; so what? Is that the reaffirmation that you were after?

I don't think you understand what I said. If you say out loud, "Gosh, I need to go to the grocery store," and someone says, "Nope, not from a book," that's not going to make any sense to you. From my perspective, how was that any different when that roommate said that after I said the phrase? You said "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," isn't very advanced and you hear others say it? So if that's the case, explain why it should matter if I say a phrase like that if that's how I really did feel at the time?

That's why I brought it up as a logical fallacy in this thread, and compared it to not going to the grocery store because it could be found in a book. I just don't understand? That roommate also later on quoted lines from the movie Princess Bride, and people around here quote lines from that movie every once in a while. Since I don't hear people around here saying, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," why do I have any less permission to say that as a person? Why is it any more from a book? I'm trying to understand?

And like you said, being from a book does not matter. That's why I asked about logical fallacies, and how to let someone know I didn't get it from a book, using interpersonal communication skills.
 
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  • #60
jarednjames said:
How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years. They first believed drilling 'released the evil spirits', and then when better technology and new ideas came out it was realized that it simply causes brain damage. That is how it happened. That is how they discovered it. There is nothing "not found in a book" about it. I don't even see the experiment, I just see a description of the discovery it causes brain damage not releases spirits. Nothing "far too left field". Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

"Or am I misunderstanding the OP?"

Okay Jared, I don't know if this helps. Let me know - let's say you're watching the news with someone. Later you say to them, such and such event happened on the news. Let's say it happened another way, things probably would be different now. If the other person says, "Not from a book," are you going to believe them? Likewise, I take a historical event I heard about from a high school teacher, not in a book, and I can't even say the historical event happened because I like to look at original sources rather than teachers. Then I make up my own hypothetical experiment out of it, and how the hypothetical experiment could go wrong, with control and experimental groups. The hypothetical experiment is not in a book. How is that any more from a book then the thinking hypothetically about the news example? How is that more from a book than my roommate's example of the null hypothesis, when you hear null hypothesis being a concern in Science from books all the time? How is that more from a book then later when he brought up experiments where researchers found that symmetrical faces are more attractive?
 

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