Who is responsible for the Australian embassy bombing in Jakarta?

[studentx]

What was the death toll in Rwanda? Three-quarters of a million civilians stabbed, hacked, clubbed, shot, raped, and in general screwed over? And you know how many people there are Muslims? One per cent.

Yeah, let's all stand in line for the Five Minute Hate session.

How is this relevant? Start a new thread about it if you have to, but stop derailing the topic.

 

[Hurkyl]

At least open your closet Adam, your no good blind.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I would have prompted you for a reference if Adam hadn't.

 

[Gokul43201]

oh really?
http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/terrorism/101/timeline.html

Ha ! That link proves my point. Before the 80s it lists a total of about 20 terrorist attacks against the US (starting from the 40s).

You have roughly that many attacks in Kashmir in one summer.

 

[studentx]

http://members.aol.com/CSPmgm/current.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904550.html
http://www.ndcf.org/Conflict_List/World2002/2002Conflictlist.htm
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/areas/worldconflicts.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm
http://www.cdi.org/dm/2003/dm1-2003.pdf

 

[Hurkyl]

I haven't had time to really dig into your links, but if your basing your statement that "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam" on a worldview like that in http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm , then it's almost tautological. In particular, it doesn't suggest that Islam is a particularly violent religion.

Drastically oversimplifying to demonstrate the idea, if there are three bodies that participate in wars, then there are three possible ways they can conflict: A vs B, A vs C, and B vs C. If you further assume that all conflicts are really between these three bodies, then you expect each of the bodies to be a participant in 2/3 of all conflicts. More, if you mix in A vs B vs C. (less if you permot A vs A type wars)

 

[Adam]

Ah, studentx, did you actually read those links? They don't support your assertion. In fact they support an opposing view.

 

[Smurf]

Aye, The impression I got was that christians are real bastards.

 

[Gokul43201]

Smurf, I'm sure we shouldn't go about making such blatantly provocative statements in a discussion forum.

If the intent of that post is truly non-inflammatory, would you care to back up the need for such a gross generalization ? Else, tone down the language a few notches.

 

[Adam]

Just check out the religions involved in the wars listed on the sites studentx provided. A lot of alleged christians running around killing people. I suspect they have some sort of global brotherhood mindset, and one of them should apologise and announce a new, peaceful direction for the whole.

PS: There is a little sarcasm involved here.

 

[member 5645]

Ha ! That link proves my point. Before the 80s it lists a total of about 20 terrorist attacks against the US (starting from the 40s).

You have roughly that many attacks in Kashmir in one summer.

Well I guess you did make your statement in a very subject way. Fairly recent could be 80's forward I guess

 

[studentx]

Just check out the religions involved in the wars listed on the sites studentx provided. A lot of alleged christians running around killing people. I suspect they have some sort of global brotherhood mindset, and one of them should apologise and announce a new, peaceful direction for the whole.

Whens the last time a christian, hindu or buddist blew himself up, carbombed buildings and schoolbuses, beheaded foreigners, flew planes into buildings, blew up passenger filled jets, slaughtered entire schools, while praising god, IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES?

How do you explain the superstring of terror attacks carried out by almost exclusively muslims, Adam?

 

[Adam]

A couple of years ago an American christian anti-abortion nutter flew to Australia and shot people in a medical clinic.

 

[studentx]

evading my questions again.

 

[russ_watters]

A couple of years ago an American christian anti-abortion nutter flew to Australia and shot people in a medical clinic.

So, you're saying you agree that its pretty rare compared to Islamic terrorism?

 

[GENIERE]

Russ_Waters – Methinks your going to be attacked by 50 irrelevant links.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Geniere really goes out on a limb. Nostradamus lives!

 

[Gokul43201]

I looked through all those links and still can't find where it says that Islamic terrorists are a minority among the terror community.

 

[Adam]

I coulen't be bothered searching for numbers now. However, I recall a while ago I searched for numbers on christian whackos killing their kids in "exorcisms" in the USA, and it happens on average about once per fortnight.

Anyone got any numbers handy regarding christian pro-life nutters murdering doctors?

 

[studentx]

I coulen't be bothered searching for numbers now. However, I recall a while ago I searched for numbers on christian whackos killing their kids in "exorcisms" in the USA, and it happens on average about once per fortnight.

Anyone got any numbers handy regarding christian pro-life nutters murdering doctors?

Adam, its time to embrace the truth, this is getting us nowhere. We all know it has been mostly, almost exclusively extremist muslims comitting international terror attacks with the purpose of collapsing the non muslim world and the increase in attacks the last few years are NOT not a problem. You don't like the truth, neither do i, but lying to muslims and telling them evrything is fine is not how you should treat your equals.

 

[Adam]

Now, I'll be careful to avoid an ad hominem here. I won't say anything about a person. However, some of the assertions and ridiculous statements around here make me think that we really do need a lifeguard or two around the gene pool. The sheer stupidity involved in some of the posts I read here is so monomentally ludicrous that I'm left questioning how the authors can possibly even type on a computer. Actually, I'm surprised they can feed themselves and survive long enough to find a computer.

Now, to the links I did not supply earlier, as I was waiting for my dinner to finish cooking...

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/e/ex/exorcism.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/20/national/main594278.shtml
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/death-exorcism.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3179789.stm
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/cults/victims_of_religion.htm
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=exorcism+child+killed&btnG=Search&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off

I'll go through here later for more.

 

[Hurkyl]

We all know

I don't; I haven't seen figures that support this.

 

[Gokul43201]

From the US State Dept. : http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2004/05/sec-040521-usia01.htm

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees (alphabetical listing)

-- Afghan Support Committee (a.k.a. Ahya ul Turas)

-- Al Taqwa Trade, Property and Industry Company Ltd. (f.k.a. Himmat Establishment)

-- Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries

-- Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)

-- Al-Ma unah

-- Al-Nur Honey Center

-- Al-Rashid Trust

-- Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce

-- Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia

-- Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)

-- Anarchist Faction for Overthrow

-- Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)

-- Asbat al-Ansar

-- Babbar Khalsa International

-- Bank Al Taqwa Ltd.

-- Black Star

-- Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)

-- Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (a.k.a. Continuity Army Council)

-- Darkazanli Company

-- Dhamat Houmet Daawa Salafia

-- Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement

-- First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO)

-- Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)

-- International Sikh Youth Federation

-- Islamic Army of Aden

-- Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization

-- Jamiat al-Ta awun al-Islamiyya

-- Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)

-- Japanese Red Army (JRA)

-- Jaysh-e-Mohammed

-- Jayshullah

-- Jerusalem Warriors

-- Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LET) (a.k.a. Army of the Righteous)

-- Libyan Islamic Fighting Group

-- Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)

-- Makhtab al-Khidmat

-- Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group

-- Nada Management Organization (f.k.a. Al Taqwa Management Organization SA)

-- New People's Army (NPA)

-- Orange Volunteers (OV)

-- People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)

-- Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)

-- Red Hand Defenders (RHD)

-- Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Pakistan and Afghanistan offices -- Kuwait office not designated)

-- Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus

-- Revolutionary United Front (RUF)

-- Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

-- The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)

-- The Islamic International Brigade

-- The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

-- The Pentagon Gang

-- The Riyadus-Salikhin Reconnaissance and Sabotage Battalion of Chechen Martyrs

-- The Special Purpose Islamic Regiment

-- Tunisian Combat Group (a.k.a. Jama a Combattante Tunisien)

-- Turkish Hizballah

-- Ulster Defense Association (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)

-- Ummah Tameer E-Nau (UTN)

-- Youssef M. Nada & Co. Gesellschaft M.B.H.

Summary : A little more than 60% are Islamic groups. Whenever the name was not suggestive of religious orientation, I've assumed non-Islamic.

 

[studentx]

Have you seen the news lately? Beslan , two passenger jets, subway suicidebomber, Jakarta carbomb. And that's just the past few weeks, and just russia.

 

[Hurkyl]

Have you seen the news lately? Beslan , two passenger jets, subway suicidebomber, Jakarta carbomb. And that's just the past few weeks, and just russia.

Have you heard about selective reporting, selective memory, and forgetfulness?

If your assertion was so obvious, it should be easy to drum up figures.

 

[Adam]

1) Define the period of time over which you are asserting that Islam is behind the greater mount of wars and terrorism and such.

2) Add up the numbers.

3) Show us.

Hint: For your own benefit, start after about 1950.

 

[Gokul43201]

wars and terrorism and such.

Too much fudge factor there. I thought this was strictly about terrorism. Whether war is justified or not is debatable.

 

[studentx]

From the US State Dept. : http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2004/05/sec-040521-usia01.htm

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees (alphabetical listing)

-- Afghan Support Committee (a.k.a. Ahya ul Turas)

-- Al Taqwa Trade, Property and Industry Company Ltd. (f.k.a. Himmat Establishment)

-- Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries

-- Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)

-- Al-Ma unah

-- Al-Nur Honey Center

-- Al-Rashid Trust

-- Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce

-- Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia

-- Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)

-- Anarchist Faction for Overthrow

-- Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR)

-- Asbat al-Ansar

-- Babbar Khalsa International

-- Bank Al Taqwa Ltd.

-- Black Star

-- Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist)

-- Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) (a.k.a. Continuity Army Council)

-- Darkazanli Company

-- Dhamat Houmet Daawa Salafia

-- Eastern Turkistan Islamic Movement

-- First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO)

-- Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)

-- International Sikh Youth Federation

-- Islamic Army of Aden

-- Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization

-- Jamiat al-Ta awun al-Islamiyya

-- Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)

-- Japanese Red Army (JRA)

-- Jaysh-e-Mohammed

-- Jayshullah

-- Jerusalem Warriors

-- Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LET) (a.k.a. Army of the Righteous)

-- Libyan Islamic Fighting Group

-- Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF)

-- Makhtab al-Khidmat

-- Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group

-- Nada Management Organization (f.k.a. Al Taqwa Management Organization SA)

-- New People's Army (NPA)

-- Orange Volunteers (OV)

-- People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)

-- Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)

-- Red Hand Defenders (RHD)

-- Revival of Islamic Heritage Society (Pakistan and Afghanistan offices -- Kuwait office not designated)

-- Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus

-- Revolutionary United Front (RUF)

-- Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

-- The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)

-- The Islamic International Brigade

-- The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

-- The Pentagon Gang

-- The Riyadus-Salikhin Reconnaissance and Sabotage Battalion of Chechen Martyrs

-- The Special Purpose Islamic Regiment

-- Tunisian Combat Group (a.k.a. Jama a Combattante Tunisien)

-- Turkish Hizballah

-- Ulster Defense Association (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters)

-- Ummah Tameer E-Nau (UTN)

-- Youssef M. Nada & Co. Gesellschaft M.B.H.

Summary : A little more than 60% are Islamic groups. Whenever the name was not suggestive of religious orientation, I've assumed non-Islamic.

Did you miss this?

 

[Adam]

You mean The Pentagon Gang?

 

[Gokul43201]

You mean The Pentagon Gang?

Pentagon Gang - a Filipino terrorist group that broke away from the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in 2001 in order to continue terrorism and kidnapping and extortion.

 

[Hurkyl]

Did you miss this?

First off, I don't suppose you could, y'know, sort them into Islamic terrorist groups and non-Islamic terrorist groups?


Secondly, why is it reasonable to think this is a complete list?


Thirdly, I thought your claim was "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam", not "2/3 of terrorist groups are Islamic".


Fourthly, what bearing does "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam" on "Islam is the problem"?

 

[Adam]

The other Pentagon Gang. :P

 

[Gokul43201]

First off, I don't suppose you could, y'know, sort them into Islamic terrorist groups and non-Islamic terrorist groups?

Probably not. But this surely is suggestive.

Secondly, why is it reasonable to think this is a complete list?

Maybe not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that the distribution is representative of any 'complete list'.

Thirdly, I thought your claim was "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam", not "2/3 of terrorist groups are Islamic".

I guess that was the original claim. But it is also one that is a little hard to provide quantitative proof of. The provided list supports that claim, but does not prove it. Anyway, I think the fraction "that involved Islam" would be close to the fraction "that are Islamic". The ideology of most Islamic groups is based on (their interpretation of) Islam.

On the other hand, training and recruiting infrastructure has been established so well by Islamic groups that many other groups use/borrow from this infrastructure. So there is greater influence than just incidents that involve Islam.

Fourthly, what bearing does "2/3 of the worlds conflicts involve Islam" on "Islam is the problem"?

When two things have a large correlation coefficient, that is cause to suspect that one has a bearing on the other.

(I'm not claiming that Islam is the problem. But surely, it is being interpreted/twisted in a manner that lends to terror recruitment. And it presumably doesn't have strong enough things to say against terror, or more religious groups would be publicly denouncing these acts.)

 

[Hurkyl]

Probably not. But this surely is suggestive.

I asked becuase, presumably, studentx thinks there are a good number of them (60%) for which it is obvious that they are Islamic. Since I don't share his alledged ability to pick out Islamic terrorist groups by their name, I was hoping he could do it for me.

Maybe not, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that the distribution is representative of any 'complete list'.

There are various reasons to think it may not be representative. This list would presumably exclude any local terrorist group, and be less likely to include groups based in more friendly nations. Presumably, the list would also be heavily biased to contain organizations likely to carry out attacks against the USA. The list would also be more likely to include groups that are openly terrorist.

Anyway, I think the fraction "that involved Islam" would be close to the fraction "that are Islamic".

I don't think there's a strong corrolation; I would expect some terrorist groups to be far more active than other groups, and since we're working with a fairly small sample space, there isn't a strong probability that the proportion of Islamic terrorist activities would be near equal to the proportion of Islamic terrorist groups.

When two things have a large correlation coefficient, that is cause to suspect that one has a bearing on the other.

I mentioned in a previous post how, even if correct, that this 2/3 figure should actually be interpreted as a normal value as opposed to an extreme. If 2/3 of conflicts involve Islam, then I would expect 1/3 of aggression to be Islamic. With one quarter of the world's population being Islamic, and the relative impreciseness of this entire analysis, I don't find the number to be significant at all.

 

[Gokul43201]

I asked becuase, presumably, studentx thinks there are a good number of them (60%) for which it is obvious that they are Islamic. Since I don't share his alledged ability to pick out Islamic terrorist groups by their name, I was hoping he could do it for me.

Actually, I made that claim, not Studentx. So here's my explanation.

If the name includes 'Islamic' or 'Islam' or 'Islamiyah', then I consider the group Islamic. Likewise for words like 'Mujahideen', 'Mujahid" , 'Jaysh', 'Jihad', etc. I also know that LeT, al-Ansar, Salafiyah, Hizballah and the Chechen Martyrs are all Islamic groups. These make up about 50%. The remaining 13% or so are Arabic names that I guessed had a high likelyhood of being Islamic. There are a couple (Darkazanli and Pentagon Gang, maybe more) of groups that are Islamic, but do not have Arabic names, and I did not count these in my estimate.

 

[studentx]

You forgot ''ummah" (the muslim world). It misses Al Quaeda tho.
Now, can anyone name a terrorist attack in this year, from atheists, christians, hindus, buddists or perhaps shaolin monks?