Who's that surgeon to the 'son'? Brain Puzzle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a series of brain teasers and puzzles involving familial relationships and logical reasoning. Participants explore various interpretations of the puzzles, particularly focusing on the relationships between mothers, daughters, and grandmothers in hypothetical scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a puzzle about a father and son, leading to the conclusion that the surgeon is the boy's mother, which is affirmed by another participant.
  • Another puzzle involves two Russians, with participants suggesting that the two are a mother and father to the boy.
  • Several participants discuss a scenario involving three people in a room, with claims that there can be two mothers and two daughters, depending on how the relationships are defined.
  • One participant argues that the identities of the individuals could be a grandmother, mother, and son, leading to different interpretations of the relationships.
  • Another participant emphasizes the vagueness of the original question, suggesting that it can be interpreted in multiple ways, which leads to various answers being proposed.
  • There are ongoing debates about the validity of different answers, with some participants asserting that their interpretations are equally valid and correct.
  • One participant requests clarification on the original question to narrow down the possible interpretations and answers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretations of the puzzles. Multiple competing views remain, with various answers being proposed and debated without resolution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the ambiguity in the phrasing of the puzzles, leading to different logical conclusions based on assumptions about familial relationships. The lack of specificity in the questions contributes to the varied interpretations and answers.

  • #31
jimmysnyder said:
For reference, here is the problem with the answer in message #7. Don't read it unless you give up on finding it.
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The daughter (he means grandmother) and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

I am pretty sure he meant that there was a mother of a daughter, and then a granddaughter who was the daughter of the daughter... Thus the daughter cannot possibly be the "grandmother". lol.
 
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  • #32
cristo said:
If I rephrased it like this, would you be happier?
Ecstatic.

Text added to satisfy a curious criterion.
 
  • #33
I don't get it... they are the same thing and I posted and reworded it for cristo beforehand and you said it was wrong...
 
  • #34
Hmm, a curious piece of "marking." I hope you're not a teacher jimmy, or else no one will be passing your exams! :biggrin:
 
  • #35
Yeah, see... this is crazy. Cristo's first answer is EXACTLY what you wrote, just worded differently:

cristo said:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The daughter and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

He states there are three people. For the sake of argument, let's call them Gloria, Mealanie, and Deborah. Gloria is the mother of Melanie, and the grandmother of Deborah. Mealanie is the daughter of Gloria and the mother of Deborah. Deborah is the daughter of Mealanie and the granddaughter of Gloria.

In cristo's wording, he lists them as Deborah, Mealanie, Gloria. He calls Deborah a granddaughter, which is totally accurate. He calls Mealanie a daughter, which is totally accurate. He calls Gloria a mother, which is ALSO totally accurate.

Just because he didn't say "Grandmother, Mother, Daughter" and instead chose to say "Granddaughter, Daughter, Mother" doesn't make him wrong.

Once I played Trivial Persuit against someone and was asked "What three colors are on Superman's suit?" I answered "Red, blue, and yellow". He immediately told me "No, it's red, yellow, blue! It says so right on the card!" And the sad thing was I absolutely could NOT convince him that the answer I gave was valid.

DaveE
 
  • #36
No wonder some people couldn't see the error without my hint. They couldn't even see it with my hint. If you saw it, then ignore this message. If you can't ignore this message, at least wait a minute before you respond to it.


Wrong:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The daughter and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

Right:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The grandmother and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

It is nothing deeper than that. cristo saw it.
 
  • #37
jimmysnyder said:
No wonder some people couldn't see the error without my hint. They couldn't even see it with my hint. If you saw it, then ignore this message. If you can't ignore this message, at least wait a minute before you respond to it.


Wrong:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The daughter and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

Right:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The grandmother and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

It is nothing deeper than that. cristo saw it.

Are you truly serious? They are the exact same thing! To argue that they are not is childish to the extreme. For one, you have to accept that the names are STATIC. Thus when you say the granddaughter, daughter and mother in the first one, the DAUGHTER is the daughter of the MOTHER, not the granddaughter. If the names are not static then the whole thing is pointless, but anyone can see that in all of the answers, the names were assumed to be static.

It is just different words for mother grandmother and granddaughter, it's like telling a german that his solution is incorrect because he called the grandmother a Großmutter.
 
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  • #38
jimmysnyder said:
No wonder some people couldn't see the error without my hint. They couldn't even see it with my hint. If you saw it, then ignore this message. If you can't ignore this message, at least wait a minute before you respond to it.


Wrong:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The daughter and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"

Right:
Granddaughter, daughter, mother. The grandmother and mother are "mothers." The granddaughter and daughter are the "daughters"


There is no way you can say that the first answer is wrong. Dave has confirmed this above, (and circles- he can obviously type faster than me!) but just to clarify.

In case 1. "The daughter and mother are mothers" is true, since the mother has a daughter (namely the daughter) and the daughter has a daughter (namely the granddaughter).

In your case, you simply redefine the names you give the people. You have called the "daughter" mother, and the "mother" grandmother.

I really hope you can see my point, but if not, I shall leave it- I don't want to start Dave's superman discussion!:rolleyes: edit: did that really happen? I feel for you being put in that situation!

It is nothing deeper than that. cristo saw it.

I didn't see that it was wrong, but I noticed that you couldn't see that there was no difference between the two!
 
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  • #39
cristo said:
I don't want to start Dave's superman discussion!:rolleyes: edit: did that really happen? I feel for you being put in that situation!

Oh, most definitely! It was somewhere around 7th or 8th grade (wow, almost 20 years ago now), I was winning (by at least 2 pie wedges) and that was the "final victory" question. So, in part, I assume he wouldn't yield because I was going to win otherwise. But I eventually gave up because I couldn't make any headway in the argument, and won a couple turns later.

DaveE
 
  • #40
davee123 said:
I was winning (by at least 2 pie wedges) and that was the "final victory" question. So, in part, I assume he wouldn't yield because I was going to win otherwise.

I hope, for his sake, that this was the reason!

But I eventually gave up because I couldn't make any headway in the argument, and won a couple turns later.

DaveE

It never pays to cheat! (well, not in this case anyway!)
 

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