Why Are Maximal Elements in Omega Prime Ideals?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of maximal elements in the context of prime ideals as presented in D.G. Northcott's book on rings and modules. Participants are examining Proposition 3, specifically questioning the necessity of stating that all maximal elements in the set of ideals $\Omega$ are prime ideals, given that a corollary in the same chapter asserts that every maximal ideal is a prime ideal.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the redundancy of stating that maximal elements in $\Omega$ are prime ideals, given that it has already been established that every maximal ideal is a prime ideal.
  • Another participant clarifies that "maximal element" in the context of the ordering $\leq$ refers to ideals that are not contained in any other ideal from $\Omega$, which is distinct from the definition of a "maximal ideal".
  • Further clarification is provided that a maximal element is defined with respect to the ordering $\leq$, meaning it is not contained in any other ideal in $\Omega$, while a maximal ideal is not contained in any ideal at all.
  • Participants are reflecting on the differences between these concepts and seeking further understanding of the implications of the definitions provided.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the distinction between maximal elements and maximal ideals, but there remains uncertainty regarding the necessity of the statement in Proposition 3. The discussion does not reach a consensus on whether the redundancy exists or the implications of the definitions.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating the nuances of definitions related to ideals and their properties, which may depend on specific contexts or interpretations within the framework of ring theory.

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I am reading D.G. Northcott's book: Lessons on Rings and Modules and Multiplicities.

I am currently studying Chapter 2: Prime Ideals and Primary Submodules.

I need help with an aspect of Proposition 3 in Chapter 2.

Proposition 3 and its proof read as follows:

View attachment 3680
View attachment 3681

In the last sentence of the statement of Proposition 3, we read the following:

" ... ... Then $$\Omega$$, together with the relation $$\le $$ is a non-empty inductive system and all its maximal elements are prime ideals."My question/problem is as follows:

$$\Omega$$ is a set of ideals and so its maximal elements would be maximal ideals ... ... BUT ... in the Corollary to Proposition 1 in this chapter, Northcott has already shown that "Every maximal ideal is a prime ideal" ... SO ... it appears that this part of Proposition 3 is unnecessary/redundant ...

But this makes me feel I am missing something or misunderstanding something ... ...

Can someone please clarify this situation ... that is why is Northcott apparently proving that all maximal ideals are prime ideals twice over ... ?

Hope someone can help ... ...
In order for MHB members to fully understand the above, I am providing Proposition 1 and its Corollary, as follows:

View attachment 3682
View attachment 3683
 
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"Maximal element" with respect to the ordering $\leq$, is different from saying "maximal ideal". The confusion is that the word 'maximal', is being used in two different contexts.
 
ThePerfectHacker said:
"Maximal element" with respect to the ordering $\leq$, is different from saying "maximal ideal". The confusion is that the word 'maximal', is being used in two different contexts.
Thanks for your help ThePerfectHacker ... but i think I need a bit more help in order to fully understand your statement ...

Since $$\Omega$$ is a set of ideals, surely then the maximal elements in $$\Omega$$ are maximal ideals ...

Can you help further?

Thanks again for your help,

Peter
 
Peter said:
Thanks for your help ThePerfectHacker ... but i think I need a bit more help in order to fully understand your statement ...

Since $$\Omega$$ is a set of ideals, surely then the maximal elements in $$\Omega$$ are maximal ideals ...

The theorem says that if $\Omega$ is a set of ideals where $\leq$ simply means containment then all the maximal elements are prime ideals.

What is a "maximal element"? It is an ideal $I \in \Omega$ with the property that $I$ is not contained in any other ideal (other than itself) from $\Omega$. We say that $I$ is a "maximal element with respect the ordering $\leq$" i.e. it is not contained in anything else.

This is not the same as saying $I$ is a "maximal ideal", because a maximal ideal is an ideal not contained in any ideal. The property of $I$ is that it is not contained in any ideal of $\Omega$. It is a different concept.
 
ThePerfectHacker said:
The theorem says that if $\Omega$ is a set of ideals where $\leq$ simply means containment then all the maximal elements are prime ideals.

What is a "maximal element"? It is an ideal $I \in \Omega$ with the property that $I$ is not contained in any other ideal (other than itself) from $\Omega$. We say that $I$ is a "maximal element with respect the ordering $\leq$" i.e. it is not contained in anything else.

This is not the same as saying $I$ is a "maximal ideal", because a maximal ideal is an ideal not contained in any ideal. The property of $I$ is that it is not contained in any ideal of $\Omega$. It is a different concept.
Thanks so so much for the clarification ... still reflecting on what you have written ... ...

Thanks again for your help ...

Peter
 

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