Why are non-relativistic particles not redshifted?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the phenomenon of cosmological redshift and its effects on non-relativistic versus relativistic particles. Participants explore the underlying physics and mathematical formulations that explain why non-relativistic particles are not significantly redshifted compared to their relativistic counterparts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that redshift typically refers to the shift in frequency of photons, suggesting that cosmic rays and other particles behave differently.
  • One participant explains that non-relativistic particles have mass energy that is much greater than their kinetic energy, leading to minimal impact from redshift, which primarily affects kinetic energy.
  • Another participant provides a detailed derivation of the geodesic equations in the FLRW universe, discussing how particle momentum is redshifted according to the scale factor and how this affects energy calculations for relativistic and non-relativistic particles.
  • A later reply emphasizes that for relativistic particles, energy scales with the scale factor, while for non-relativistic particles, energy remains approximately constant over time.
  • Some participants suggest that using energy squared in explanations may provide clearer insights into the redshift phenomenon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the clarity and implications of the redshift effects on different types of particles. While there is some agreement on the minimal impact of redshift on non-relativistic particles, the discussion remains unresolved regarding the best explanatory approach and the nuances of the underlying physics.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves complex mathematical formulations and assumptions about the conditions under which particles are considered relativistic or non-relativistic. There are also references to specific units and conditions that may not be universally applicable.

RedDwarf
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Hey!

I was reading some script and when it comes to the cosmological redshift, it says, that only relativistic particles are affected by cosmological redshift. This does feel quite natural, however, I haven't been able to come up with an explanation that shows it with proper physics and formulae.

Hope you can help!
 
Space news on Phys.org
RedDwarf said:
I was reading some script

Please give a specific reference.
 
Red shift usually refers to photons shift in frequency. Particles such as in cosmic rays are different.
 
RedDwarf said:
Hey!

I was reading some script and when it comes to the cosmological redshift, it says, that only relativistic particles are affected by cosmological redshift. This does feel quite natural, however, I haven't been able to come up with an explanation that shows it with proper physics and formulae.

Hope you can help!
The reason is that non-relativistic particles have mass energy far greater than their kinetic energy (this is what is meant by the term non-relativistic). Redshift only reduces the kinetic energy, so the impact on non-relativistic particles is tiny. There is an impact, but it has so little effect on the overall energy of non-relativistic particles that can be safely ignored when looking at how their energy changes over time.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: RedDwarf
The geodesic equations for the FLRW universe are derived from maximising the expression
$$
S = \int g_{ab} \dot x^a \dot x^b d\tau = \int (\underbrace{\dot t^2 - a(t)^2 \dot{\vec x}^2}_{\equiv L}) d\tau.
$$
Since the integrand does not depend explicitly on the spatial coordinates, there are constants of motion
$$
k_i = \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x^i} = 2 a(t)^2 \dot x^i.
$$
Noting that the 4-momentum of a particle is its mass multiplied by its 4-velocity, it follows that it is given by ##P^a = m \dot x^a##. The spatial momentum is therefore given by ##\vec p^2 = - g_{ij} P^i P^j = m^2 a(t)^2 \dot{\vec x}^2 = m^2 \vec k^2 / a(t)^2 = \vec p(t_0)^2 a(t_0)^2/a(t)^2##. Hence, what is actually red-shifted according to the scale factor is the particle momentum.

For the particle energy, this means that
$$
E(t) = \sqrt{m^2 + p(t)^2} = \sqrt{m^2 + \frac{a(t_0)^2}{a(t)^2} p(t_0)^2}.
$$
In the case that ##p(t_0) \gg m## and ##p(t) \gg m##, i.e., for relativistic particles, you would therefore find
$$
E(t) \simeq \frac{a(t_0)}{a(t)} E(t_0),
$$
whereas for ##p(t_0) \ll m## and ##p(t) \ll m##, i.e., for non-relativistic particles, you instead obtain
$$
E(t) \simeq m \simeq E(t_0).
$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: RedDwarf
Orodruin said:
The geodesic equations for the FLRW universe are derived from maximising the expression
$$
S = \int g_{ab} \dot x^a \dot x^b d\tau = \int (\underbrace{\dot t^2 - a(t)^2 \dot{\vec x}^2}_{\equiv L}) d\tau.
$$
Since the integrand does not depend explicitly on the spatial coordinates, there are constants of motion
$$
k_i = \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot x^i} = 2 a(t)^2 \dot x^i.
$$
Noting that the 4-momentum of a particle is its mass multiplied by its 4-velocity, it follows that it is given by ##P^a = m \dot x^a##. The spatial momentum is therefore given by ##\vec p^2 = - g_{ij} P^i P^j = m^2 a(t)^2 \dot{\vec x}^2 = m^2 \vec k^2 / a(t)^2 = \vec p(t_0)^2 a(t_0)^2/a(t)^2##. Hence, what is actually red-shifted according to the scale factor is the particle momentum.

For the particle energy, this means that
$$
E(t) = \sqrt{m^2 + p(t)^2} = \sqrt{m^2 + \frac{a(t_0)^2}{a(t)^2} p(t_0)^2}.
$$
In the case that ##p(t_0) \gg m## and ##p(t) \gg m##, i.e., for relativistic particles, you would therefore find
$$
E(t) \simeq \frac{a(t_0)}{a(t)} E(t_0),
$$
whereas for ##p(t_0) \ll m## and ##p(t) \ll m##, i.e., for non-relativistic particles, you instead obtain
$$
E(t) \simeq m \simeq E(t_0).
$$
Small comment:
I think this kind of explanation is clearer if explained using the energy squared rather than the energy:

$$E(t)^2 = m^2 + p(t)^2 = m^2 + {a(t_0)^2 \over a(t)^2} p(t_0)^2$$

(note to others: both of our explanations are using units where the speed of light ##c## can be omitted)
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: RedDwarf
kimbyd said:
The reason is that non-relativistic particles have mass energy far greater than their kinetic energy (this is what is meant by the term non-relativistic). Redshift only reduces the kinetic energy, so the impact on non-relativistic particles is tiny. There is an impact, but it has so little effect on the overall energy of non-relativistic particles that can be safely ignored when looking at how their energy changes over time.
Thank you so much, this is exactly what my tired brain couldn't put into words!
 
kimbyd said:
Small comment:
I think this kind of explanation is clearer if explained using the energy squared rather than the energy:

$$E(t)^2 = m^2 + p(t)^2 = m^2 + {a(t_0)^2 \over a(t)^2} p(t_0)^2$$

(note to others: both of our explanations are using units where the speed of light ##c## can be omitted)
Thank you, this helped very much!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
16K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
17K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
5K