Why Are Riemann Sums Confusing Without Function Curves?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the confusion surrounding Riemann sums, particularly when presented without function curves. Participants express frustration with the lack of clarity in their textbook and seek understanding of how to approach Riemann sum problems using sigma notation, specifically when only the dimensions of rectangles are provided.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses frustration with Riemann sums and the vague explanations in their textbook, questioning how to solve a problem using sigma notation without a function curve.
  • Another participant explains a specific method for calculating Riemann sums, mentioning the definitions of 0th and 1st Riemann sums and how they relate to the given problem, but notes that this method is not the only approach.
  • A different participant prefers using the formula for the sum of the first n integers, suggesting it is a clearer method than the one presented in the original problem.
  • One participant critiques the notation used in the original problem, arguing that it is a poor representation of the basic steps involved in calculating Riemann sums.
  • Mathematical steps are provided by one participant to illustrate their approach to solving the problem, using the formula for the sum of integers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best method for solving Riemann sums, with multiple competing views on the clarity and effectiveness of the approaches discussed. There is also disagreement regarding the presentation of the problem and its notation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight limitations in the presentation of the problem, including unclear notation and assumptions about the definitions of Riemann sums. The discussion reflects a variety of interpretations and methods without resolving the underlying confusion.

guynoone
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
Alright, I started doing Riemann sums and I am ripping my hair out in frustration. I just can't wrap my head around how I'm supposed to do it, and my woefully vague textbook isn't helping either. I'm wondering how I'm supposed to solve a Riemann sum question with sigma notation (no limits), and with only the width and height of the rectangles provided (no curve function). I used the image as an example. I have absolutely no clue how/why they get the 30 and 27. If anyone could provide a step by step explanation, it would be great. Thanks
 

Attachments

  • Untitled-1.jpg
    Untitled-1.jpg
    44 KB · Views: 485
Physics news on Phys.org
Welcome to PF!

guynoone said:
… I have absolutely no clue how/why they get the 30 and 27.

Hi guynoone! Welcome to PF! :smile:

ok … for some reason, the 0th Riemann sum, from 1 to n, is defined as being 1/n times the ∑, and the 1st Riemann sum as 1/n² times ∑.

In this case, you're expecting 10/3 times the 0th sum, and 1/3 times the 1st, but this particular definition means that you multiply the 0th one by 9, = 10/3 * 9 = 30, and the 1st one by 81, = 81 * 1/3 = 27. :smile:

(it isn't the only way of working out this problem … it's only really useful if you happen to have tables of Riemann sums :wink:

personally, i prefer to remember ∑i = n(n+1)/2)
 
Thanks for the answer. To be honest I still don't really get what is happening for the solution I posted, but I just plan on sticking to the ∑i = n(n+1)/2) method which is way better (they must be trying to confuse us on purpose with these identities!)
 


''ok … for some reason, the 0th Riemann sum, from 1 to n, is defined as being 1/n times the ∑, and the 1st Riemann sum as 1/n² times ∑.''

Little abuse of notation here, even though I'm sure tiny-tim understands the entire problem.
The 0th order term refers to a sum which involves i^0, or 1, a first order term involves i^1 = i, and so on. Writing \sum without any explicit is common, but writing it without any arguments (summands) is not.
Actually, all that is done in this work a (very poor, in my opinion) condensation of the basic steps.

<br /> \begin{align*}<br /> \sum_{i=1}^9 {\frac{10-i} 3} &amp; = \frac 1 3 \sum_{i=1}^9 {(10-i)}\\<br /> &amp; = \frac 1 3 \left(\sum_{i=1}^9 10 - \sum_{i=1}^9 i \right) \\<br /> &amp; = \frac 1 3 \left( 10 \sum_{i=1}^9 1 - \sum_{i=1}^9 i \right)\\<br /> &amp; = \frac 1 3 \left(10 \cdot 9 - \frac{10\cdot 9}{2} \right) \\<br /> &amp; = \frac 1 3 \left(90 - 45\right) = \frac{45}{3} = 15<br /> \end{align*}<br />


Note that the formula

<br /> \sum_{i=1}^n =\frac{n(n+1)} 2<br />

was used, with n = 9, was used.

As I indicated at the top of my post, I believe the solution for this problem (the one posted by the OP) is very poorly presented and typeset
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
8K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K