Why are Science Undergrad Programs Heavy on General Ed?

[Rick16]

I have always wondered about this: Why is it that at US-universities the ratio of subject matter courses to general education courses is so much lower in science programs than in engineering programs? As if there were not enough material in the sciences.

 

[phinds]

First, I'd like to see any evidence that science students take more non-major courses than do engineering students to even know if your question is valid.

Second, having a large number of available non-major course regardless of one's major, is a sign that a university/college would like its graduates to be well rounded.

College is not a trade school.

 

[Rick16]

Here is some evidence:

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofengineering/mechanicalengineering/bsme-mechanical-engineering/

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofartsandscience/physics/bs-physics/

The major-related courses in the mechanical engineering program add up to 108 credit hours, for the physics program it is a mere 70 credit hours.

I don't doubt the benefits of a rounded education. I just wonder why science students are treated so differently from engineering students in this respect.

 

[gmax137]

College is not a trade school.

Right, but engineering is more like a trade school than physics. In the sense that, engineering graduates typically go into engineering, while physics graduates go into physics, teaching, finance, banking, programming, and on and on.

Maybe our engineering schools should require more courses outside the major. In an effort to combat the stereotype: engineers as introverted, dull conversationalists. I'm allowed to say that, I was an engineer for over 40 years.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This sounds very school dependent. MIT requires 8 classes in Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences irrespective of major. They require a lab class outside your major, again, irrespective of major. They do require engineers to take 2 semesters of introductory physics and 2 semesters of introductory calculus, while not requiring physics or math majors to take two semesters of engineering, but these classes are foundational.

 

[berkeman]

Here is some evidence:

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofengineering/mechanicalengineering/bsme-mechanical-engineering/

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofartsandscience/physics/bs-physics/

The major-related courses in the mechanical engineering program add up to 108 credit hours, for the physics program it is a mere 70 credit hours.

I don't doubt the benefits of a rounded education. I just wonder why science students are treated so differently from engineering students in this respect.

I'm not able to quickly figure it out from the links, but IIRC in my undergrad there was a required minimum number of credits for general education/liberal arts classes in order for me to satisfy the requirements for my BSEE. Is there a required minumum number of such credits in those two links that you posted? Or are the credits shown just typical and not the minimum required? It's hard to believe that the general ed credits shown for the physics degree are the minimum required, IMO...

 

[hutchphd]

The major-related courses in the mechanical engineering program add up to 108 credit hours, for the physics program it is a mere 70 credit hours.

I think the emphasis is in fact different. I graduated with Bachelor of Arts degree. I had to be adequate in a foreign language, be able to write a legible essay, know some history, and know music theory, and how to appreciate good wine (hooray for the Hotel school) to get that BA. I probably couldn't have survived any more Physics anyway!
But the definition of an engineering course is less restrictive than the the definition of a "physics" course so it not exactly apples to apples comparisonl

 

[Rick16]

I'm not able to quickly figure it out from the links, but IIRC in my undergrad there was a required minimum number of credits for general education/liberal arts classes in order for me to satisfy the requirements for my BSEE. Is there a required minumum number of such credits in those two links that you posted? Or are the credits shown just typical and not the minimum required? It's hard to believe that the general ed credits shown for the physics degree are the minimum required, IMO...

I cannot figure it out quickly either. I posted this link as an example. It is one of many university web sites that I checked out quite a while ago, and the general pattern was everywhere the same: significantly less general education classes in the engineering programs than in the science programs.

 

[mpresic3]

The general ed requirements when I went to school in physics were extremely low. I think the engineers had to take courses like engineering ethics, engineering economics etc. The university required one english course which many placed out of (I did not). One intermediate foreign language course (my 4 years in high school may have been enough to take the exam and place out of, but I took the junior level intermediate course anyway.) One semester of Phys Ed. (I took swimming, although the upper classmen already told me they were going to take away the Phys Ed. requirement the next semester and the school did).

Other than that I took two semesters in philosophy, (many physics and math majors took one of these courses as logic, which was almost a math course. I did not take logic). I took a course in electrical engineering and computers and information systems from the school of management. In the early 1970's you had to take a course like this to get any experience on the mainframe computer (with cards). There were no PC's back then.

That is not a lot of general education courses. I do not think I wrote a dozen papers as an undergraduate.

Perhaps unexpectedly, UVA told me I was going to have to take a foreign language exam in French, German or Latin to graduate in their physics doctoral program. I thought this was unusual even for a "traditional" school like Virginia.

 

[BillTre]

Perhaps unexpectedly, UVA told me I was going to have to take a foreign language exam in French, German or Latin to graduate in their physics doctoral program. I thought this was unusual even for a "traditional" school like Virginia.

I had to deal with a requirement for that in grad school (in the 1980's).
I had had some languages before, but it was learn and forget (never used them).

I convinced them computer languages were good for this somehow.
My advisor backed me up on this or it probably wouldn't have worked out.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A foreign language requirement is common for a PhD. It seldom is the limiting factor. I think I told the story before, but mine went (almost) like this:
"I see you took German, Sprechen sie Deutsch?"
"Si, senor!"
"Close enough. Next!"

 

[vela]

significantly less general education classes in the engineering programs than in the science programs.

Really? This is a bit different than what you said in your original post about the ratio of subject-matter courses to general ed. When I was in college, the university had a set of general education requirements all students had to satisfy to graduate, regardless of their majors. The difference with engineering was that there were more upper-division courses offered, and perhaps required, compared to other majors. So the ratio would be higher for engineering majors, but they'd take the same number of general ed classes as other majors.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

A foreign language requirement is common for a PhD. It seldom is the limiting factor. I think I told the story before, but mine went (almost) like this:
"I see you took German, Sprechen sie Deutsch?"
"Si, senor!"
"Close enough. Next!"

Glad to know. This was one of my fears entering a PhD program in Mathematics. I am fluent in English, Spanish, and Comanche . From my personal research, it appears that Spanish is not one of the languages one gets tested on.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I am sure this requirement varies a LOT with place and time.

Is your native language Spanish or better Comanche? If so, huffing and puffing about cultural bias will send the university people checking on this scurring back under their refrigerators like cockroaches. (Do you also speak Shoshone? If so, add it to your list. If not, how the devile did you manage that?)

I have never needed to read a paper in any language other than English. I have sat on PhD defense committes where the defense was partially in French or German - which was a university requirement that made the students even more uncomfortable than me. I would not worry about this requirement.

 

[swampwiz]

I went through a mechanical engineering program that at the time was 135 semester hours, or 9 semesters of 15 hours each. There was only 15 hours of humanities & social sciences, although basic economics was required for some reason. There was just a lot of core stuff to fit in the program, especially labs.

Looking at a regular science program, there just isn't that much stuff that is be considered core material at the undergraduate level, and the curriculum typically allows enough space for either a specific concentration in that science field, or enough to get a minor in pretty much anything, with education being one such minor - or alternatively, there is enough room to get all the pre-medical/dental/pharm, etc. requirements plus a few "nice to have" courses too (to help in over the admission committee).

Looking at my alma mater, for the science programs I see 9 hours of humanities (English, foreign language, history, philosophy, etc.), 6 hours of social science, 3 hours of art/music, and 9 hours of science (easily tucked into the program) with 3 hours required being biology, and then 6 hours of freshman English composition (being able to write a paper is the essential skill of any educated person). Of course, there is also math through calculus, Diff EQ & Linear Algebra (which easily covers the 3 hours of math that everyone has to take). This is about 60 hours of stuff, and the major program requires another 30 or so hours, leaving another 30 hours of general electives.

Why not have these electives? Who knows, maybe a physics major lad will meet a cute psych coed in those electives. :)

 

[swampwiz]

Right, but engineering is more like a trade school than physics. In the sense that, engineering graduates typically go into engineering, while physics graduates go into physics, teaching, finance, banking, programming, and on and on.

Maybe our engineering schools should require more courses outside the major. In an effort to combat the stereotype: engineers as introverted, dull conversationalists. I'm allowed to say that, I was an engineer for over 40 years.

Engineering is like freshmen physics where you apply the concepts to solve real world problems. Engineering-Mechanics-Statics is basically F = M = 0 and doing geometrical calculations like moment of area or inertia. Engineering-Mechanics-Dynamics is F = m a & M = J α, conservation of momentum and mechanical energy (for the path independent case), but the techniques learned are lot more in depth than freshman physics, which just introduces the concepts and moves on to other concepts.

Solid mechanics is F = 0 in a constitutive (sp?) field, the 4 equations for beam stress along with the way they sum up (i.e., Mohr's circle or the eigenvalue problem for the general 2-D or 3-D quadratic locus), the 4th order diff EQ for beam deflection, and the extraordinarily trick beam stability problem.

Fluid mechanics is basic at first, but soon you are into dimensional analysis and pipe flow resistance. Thermodynamics is the basic 2 laws, but using those laws to make a way through a tricky set of equations along a thermodynamic process/cycle (for some reason, I would see my fellow thermo class students that felt like not showing up for class after the drop date take a keen interest in business later on). Similarly, the basics of heat transfer are from freshman physics, but with very difficult problem spaces. I could go on.

 

[swampwiz]

Maybe our engineering schools should require more courses outside the major. In an effort to combat the stereotype: engineers as introverted, dull conversationalists. I'm allowed to say that, I was an engineer for over 40 years.

Maybe engineers are introverted, dull - oh just come out and say it, nerdy - is because take so few classes with the general student population, especially those that have an abundance of coeds.

 

[gmax137]

Where I worked, in 1980 we had about 1 in 30 women to men engineers. When I left last year, hiring was more like 30/70, or maybe 40/60, women to men. Not 50/50, but a huge change from when I started.

 

[symbolipoint]

I have always wondered about this: Why is it that at US-universities the ratio of subject matter courses to general education courses is so much lower in science programs than in engineering programs? As if there were not enough material in the sciences.

You're pointing to "ratio". More important is quantity of the courses' units. Without referring specifically to listed details of any programs, the sense I have is the Engineering degree requires more major-field courses than many Science degrees (undergraduate level). The actual amount of general education courses would be the same no matter the MAJOR field.

Like I say, I did not look at any particular sciences and engineering programs to make a comparison, so I might be wrong about this.

 

[mpresic3]

Here is some evidence:

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofengineering/mechanicalengineering/bsme-mechanical-engineering/

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofartsandscience/physics/bs-physics/

The major-related courses in the mechanical engineering program add up to 108 credit hours, for the physics program it is a mere 70 credit hours.

I don't doubt the benefits of a rounded education. I just wonder why science students are treated so differently from engineering students in this respect.

You make a general statement and support it with one example with two links for University of Missouri.

In my experience, engineers had to take engineering economics, and engineering ethics. I never had to take courses in physics economics, or physics ethics.

 

[WWGD]

Here is some evidence:

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofengineering/mechanicalengineering/bsme-mechanical-engineering/

https://catalog.missouri.edu/collegeofartsandscience/physics/bs-physics/

The major-related courses in the mechanical engineering program add up to 108 credit hours, for the physics program it is a mere 70 credit hours.

I don't doubt the benefits of a rounded education. I just wonder why science students are treated so differently from engineering students in this respect.

Do you have the total number of credits needed to be able to graduate for each program?

 

[jbergman]

You make a general statement and support it with one example with two links for University of Missouri.

In my experience, engineers had to take engineering economics, and engineering ethics. I never had to take courses in physics economics, or physics ethics.

I think it is generally true. MIT is a bit of an exception since it is only a technical school.

Where I went to school physics majors have 110 units of science and math requirements and EE majors have about 137 units. I always thought it was a bit strange, too.

 

[Vanadium 50]

since it is only a technical school.

Really?

Eight Nobel prizes from the School of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences? (I'm only counting faculty - not alumni)

 

[jbergman]

Really?

Eight Nobel prizes from the School of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences? (I'm only counting faculty - not alumni)

Yes. What departments are you talking about? Economics?

 

[jbergman]

Really?

Eight Nobel prizes from the School of Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences? (I'm only counting faculty - not alumni)

I just looked and they were all economics professors. Your comment is a pretty disingenuous portrayal of those nobel laureates.