Why, at lower altitudes, does the atm change more rapidly?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the behavior of atmospheric pressure with respect to altitude, particularly why pressure changes more rapidly at lower altitudes. Participants explore the relationship between pressure, altitude, air density, and convection, questioning the linearity of this relationship and considering different atmospheric models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude due to the increasing weight of the air column, questioning whether this relationship should be linear.
  • Another participant refers to the isothermal case and presents a formula for pressure variation in an adiabatic atmosphere, suggesting that the dependence is not linear.
  • A participant offers a conceptual visualization, arguing that a linear model would imply a sharp boundary between atmosphere and vacuum, which contradicts the gradual tapering of the atmosphere.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of a curved pressure gradient, asserting that it reflects the reality of atmospheric behavior without a hard boundary.
  • One participant mentions solving differential equations related to the ideal gas law, suggesting that the pressure follows an exponential pattern as altitude decreases.
  • Another participant emphasizes the complexity of the pressure gradient in the upper atmosphere, noting that it depends on the temperature profile and is not easily explained.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the pressure-altitude relationship, with some supporting the idea of a curved gradient while others challenge the reasoning behind it. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of atmospheric behavior, including the influence of temperature profiles and the distinction between isothermal and adiabatic conditions. There are unresolved assumptions regarding the applicability of different models to real atmospheric conditions.

Bipolarity
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The lower the altitude, the more rapidly the atmospheric pressure changes with respect to altitude.

http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/images/powerhandling/Pressure2.jpg

Why does this happen? I know that the pressure itself is supposed to decrease since the weight of the air column increases as altitude drops, but shouldn't this be a linear relation?

Does it have anything to do with the air density and the convection of air?

Thanks!

BiP
 
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It shows why the dependence is not linear without delving into too many confusing details. Much better from the pedagogical point of view.
 
A rather simplistic but intuitive way to see why it should not be linear is this:

Examine the graph in your OP and imagine it as a straight line. It would intersect the X-axis (altitude).

It would mean that the edge of space -the line between atmosphere and vacuum - would be sharp. You could be at 120,000 feet and be in atmo, and then at 121,000 feet and be in hard vacuum.

Does that make sense?
 
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DaveC426913 said:
Does that make sense?

Why not?
 
DrStupid said:
Why not?

Why not what? Why does it not make sense?

I think most people intuitively know that there is no hard boundary at very the edge of the atmo - that it gets tenuous the farther out you go.

I'm pointing out that, knowing this, one can immediately deduce that the graph must be curved.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies. I understand it now.

BiP
 
DaveC426913 said:
I think most people intuitively know that there is no hard boundary at very the edge of the atmo - that it gets tenuous the farther out you go.

I'm pointing out that, knowing this, one can immediately deduce that the graph must be curved.

The adiabatic graph also intersects the X-axis although it is curved and even for a linear pressure gradient there would be no hard boundary. Therefore I can not see the logic in your argumentation. The explanation in Borek's link is much more better. The calculation is made for an isothermal case but the same principle works for a non-isothermal atmospheres too.
 
  • #10
DrStupid said:
The adiabatic graph also intersects the X-axis although it is curved and even for a linear pressure gradient there would be no hard boundary.
If it intersects the axis then that means at one point there is pressure, and at a point an arbitrarily-small distance away the pressure is zero - no air. That's a boundary.

Most us can intuitively grasp that this is not the way the atmo tapers off. Once the OP realizes that he already knew the pressure gradient was curved, he would realize that it's probably curved all the way to the ground.

It's the difference between being told something, and self-discovery.

DrStupid said:
The explanation in Borek's link is much more better.
It's not a competition. Multiple responses are not penalized. :rolleyes:
 
  • #11
Solving differential equation with ideal gas law and P=ρgh you would see that it follows an exponential pattern which coincides with your graph.

I think an intuitive explanation would be, with decreasing altitude, more weight of the air above is exerted to the air below.
 
  • #12
DaveC426913 said:
If it intersects the axis then that means at one point there is pressure, and at a point an arbitrarily-small distance away the pressure is zero - no air. That's a boundary.

Its not a hard boundary because for arbitrarily-small distances the corresponding pressure differences would be arbitrarily-small to.

DaveC426913 said:
Most us can intuitively grasp that this is not the way the atmo tapers off.

Trying to understand physics intuitively is sometimes not a good idea. An adiabatic atmosphere would taper off this way and it is more realistic than the isothermal case described by the exponential curve without boundary. Explaining why the real atmosphere has no upper limit is not as easy as you seem to believe. The pressure gradient depends on the temperature profile and that's a quite complex topic in the upper atmosphere.
 

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