Why can fermions occupy only one state and

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fundamental differences between fermions and bosons, particularly focusing on why fermions can occupy only one state while bosons can occupy multiple states. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects, physical interpretations, and implications in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the physical reason for the differing occupancy of states by fermions and bosons relates to the properties of identical particles and their wave function transformations, which can be symmetric or antisymmetric.
  • One participant argues that fermions are defined by their relativistic transformation behavior, implying that this characteristic is intrinsic and not subject to further questioning.
  • Another participant provides an experimental perspective, discussing how electrons lose energy quickly in interactions, complicating the identification of individual electrons over time.
  • A later reply elaborates on the mathematical treatment of wavefunctions, emphasizing the role of permutation operators and the necessity for total antisymmetry in fermionic states.
  • Reference to Richard Liboff's textbook is made, indicating that it contains relevant information on the topic, specifically regarding the mathematical framework of fermions and bosons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the question and the underlying reasons for the behavior of fermions and bosons. There is no consensus on a singular explanation, and multiple perspectives are presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes complex mathematical concepts and interpretations that may depend on specific definitions and assumptions in quantum mechanics. Some participants reference experimental scenarios that may not be universally applicable.

Davio
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Why can bosons occupy more? Surely the reason must be more than the maths? Whats the physical reason?
 
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Davio said:
Why can bosons occupy more? Surely the reason must be more than the maths? Whats the physical reason?

The physical reason is in identical particle properties: their exchanging may not change the system state. So only two possibilities exist: symmetric or antisymmetric wave function transformations. Both cases exist in nature. The antisymmetric states are called fermionic and their statistics is different.

Photons are not charged, there is a superposition principle for EMF, so they can be "together" as one photon of higher strength.
 
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IMHO your question is ill put. We define fermions by their relativistic transformation behavior. This is like saying why don't positive charges repel negative charges. It is part of the definition of the negative charge.

Fact is: With the prevalent spacetime symmetry particles have few transformation behaviors to choose from. (Well ok few sane ones...2 dimensional anyons and parastatistic excluded)
 
Physical reason? Well in some experiment... for exaple you have some target and you bomb that target with electrons. Electrons very quick louse their energy and you can't say is some electron in some other moment the electron you look in some other moment.
If you look two electrons and let's say that state of the system is [tex]\psi(\xi_1,\xi_2)[/tex], where [tex]\xi_1[/tex] and [tex]\xi_2[/tex] denoting the three coordinates and spin projection. And define some operator of permutation:
[tex]\hat{P}_{1,2}\psi(\xi_1,\xi_2)=\psi(\xi_2,\xi_1)[/tex]

Eigen problem of this operator is:
[tex]\hat{P}_{1,2}\psi(\xi_1,\xi_2)=\lambda\psi(\xi_1,\xi_2)[/tex]

[tex]\Rightarrow \lambda=\pm1[/tex]

[tex]\lambda=-1[/tex] - fermions
[tex]\lambda=1[/tex] - bosons
 
To follow up on Petar's response, because you can't tell one particle from another, because of the probabilistic interpretation of QM, you must write the wavefunction as a superposition of particle one in state one particle with two in state two and particle one in state two and particle two in state one.

In the case of N electrons it is more complicated. Because the permutation operators commute with the Hamiltonian, but not each other only the "totally symmetric" and "total anti-symmetric" combinations of permutations are allowed. The wavefunction that is total anti-symmetric is what we find electrons as and this is the case of Fermions.

There is an excellent section in Richard Liboff's textbook on this. In the third edition it is section 12.3 pages 613-619.
 

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