Why D + D Reactions Don't Produce He4: Understanding Nuclear Fusion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasons why deuterium-deuterium (D + D) fusion does not produce helium-4 (He4). Participants explore the conservation laws and energy considerations involved in nuclear fusion reactions, particularly focusing on the possible outcomes of D + D reactions and the implications of conservation of momentum and energy.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that D + D reactions can yield He3 and tritium (T) along with a neutron (n) or a proton (p), but question why He4 is not a product.
  • One participant emphasizes the importance of conserving momentum and energy in the center of mass frame, suggesting that if He4 were produced, the total momentum and kinetic energy would need to be zero, which leads to contradictions.
  • Another participant raises the possibility of energy being carried away by gamma rays, questioning if this could resolve the energy conservation issue.
  • It is proposed that while reactions producing only one product are not impossible, they would require the final state to be in an excited state with sufficient energy, which may not be feasible given the binding energy of He4.
  • Participants discuss the mass excess of deuterium and He4, calculating the Q value for the reaction and noting that an excited state of He4 with the required energy is not possible due to its binding energy limitations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of producing He4 from D + D reactions, with some arguing that it is theoretically possible under certain conditions while others assert that the energy and momentum conservation laws present significant obstacles. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact conditions under which such a reaction could occur.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific energy levels and the challenges posed by electrostatic repulsion at low energies, which complicate the feasibility of achieving the necessary conditions for the proposed reactions.

Knuckles
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The title pretty much says it all. According to my research there are 2 equally probable deuterium-deuterium reactions:

D + D > He3 + n
D + D > T + p

So what prevents D + D > He4 from happening? All these reactions are exothermic, conserve mass, and conserve the number of nucleons. What other rules/conservation laws apply here?
 
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Knuckles said:
What other rules/conservation laws apply here?
Knuckles,

Conservation of momentum for one. If we had D + D --> He4; look at the reaction in the
center of mass frame of the He4 nucleus. In the center of mass frame of the product He4;
the total momentum is zero. So the total momentum of the incoming deuterons would
also have to be zero in that reference frame. The total kinetic energy after the fusion
reaction would also have to be zero in this reference frame.

You have to be able to conserve BOTH momentum and energy [ including the Q - the
energy released by the reaction ] in that reference frame.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
 
Last edited:
So you're saying that if we COULD have reactions with only one product, then we would always be free to consider the centre of mass frame of that product and calculate the product's kinetic energy as 0... and this would be a contradiction because the initial kinetic energy and the Q released by the reaction would both, apparently, have vanished? Could we have the extra energy carried away in one or more gamma rays?
 
Knuckles said:
Could we have the extra energy carried away in one or more gamma rays?
Knuckles,

Try it. You know the relationship between energy and momentum for a photon: E = pc
where E is the energy, p is the momentum, and c is the speed of light.

You have to conserve BOTH momentum and energy.

The Q of the reaction that you propose would be just under 24 MeV. [ Use the masses of D and He4 ]

Try to conserve both momentum and energy for this reaction. Both energy and momentum have to
be conserved in ALL frames - but my hint of using the center of mass frame of the product He4 helps
make it simpler since if it is the only product - the momentum in that frame is zero. If you have a
photon too - then the momentum will be non-zero because a photon has momentum in all frames;
but it will be smaller than if you had a nucleus recoiling.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
 
In fact, the problem is that, as Morbius pointed out, that as we have only one particle in the final state, that the energy cannot be kinetic energy, but must be internal energy.

Now, such reactions are a priori not impossible: it could be that the final state is in an excited state with just enough extra excitation energy to be possible.

Now, when we look at the NNDC chart (see http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/reCenter.jsp?z=1&n=1) we see that the mass excess of D is 13.1357 MeV, and that the mass surplus of He-4 is 2.4249 MeV. That means that if the two D nucleae are coming in at very low energy (difficult to do already because of electrostatic repulsion...), we have a Q for this reaction of 2 x 13.1357 - 2.4249 MeV = 23.8465 MeV.
So this means that we should find an excited state of the helium-4 nucleus with an excitation energy of something like 23.8 MeV for it to be possible (and higher if the incoming D energy is higher).
Now, the binding energy of He-4 equals 2 x 7.2890 + 2 x 8.0713 - 2.4249 MeV = 14.591 MeV
as calculated from the mass excess of two protons (H-1) and two neutrons.
This means that the ground state of He-4 is only 14.591 MeV below 0. A bound state with an excitation of 23.8 MeV is hence not possible. That doesn't mean that resonances aren't possible of course. But you cannot have a bound state of He-4 which is excited 23.8 MeV above the ground state, as the ground state itself is only 14.591 MeV deep.
 

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