Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Why do I never hear that the BB was caused by a collapsing black hole?

  1. Jun 6, 2013 #1
    Even before I had seen a Kaku documentary on black holes creating new universes, perhaps with different physics on the other side of them, I had had this image that the Big Bang was caused by a collapsing point singularity in a parent galaxy.
    Surely there must be something wrong with this simple theory.
    It seems to have another corollary in that it could explain the elusive negative energy that is the source of much hypothetical speculation. It would suggest that spatial structure is still coming through the black hole, sucked in from the parent universe and redistributing itself. Galaxies are concentrated by their central black holes having the opposite effect, reducing the space around them.
    It sounds too obvious. Somebody must have suggested it and others shot it down before it really came into the public domain.
    Could somebody please explain why I am wrong.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 6, 2013 #2
    There are such proposals, here are two examples:
    http://evodevouniverse.com/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selection_(fecund_universes)
    http://www.insidescience.org/content/every-black-hole-contains-new-universe/566

    I should add that its true that people have proposed this idea, it hasn't exactly gained traction in the community. It doesn't mean they are wrong but the arguments are clearly not strong enough to be convincing. A problem is that big bang singularities are some what different to black hole singularities. Again this doesn't mean those theories are wrong and I'm sure the people that proposed these ideas know this but it should give us caution in trusting our intuition that the two are the same.
     
  4. Jun 6, 2013 #3
    Thank you. It seemed a little obvious. Big Bang - point singularity, black hole - point singularity. Now that we are in an era of multiverse theories, it would not matter too much if the Big Bang were no longer the beginning.

    However, I cannot see anything in the references that use this to explain Negative Energy. Could space continue to be pulled through a black hole to expand the other universe?
     
  5. Jun 6, 2013 #4

    bapowell

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    The big bang was not a point singularity.
     
  6. Jun 6, 2013 #5
    Apparently, there are those that think that it could have been a Point Singularity, as in another name for a black hole and I did not think that we could state what it was or what it was not before the Big Bang with any certainty. Wiki uses the term singularity to describe the BB and it is a point with no dimensions (as we know them) from as far as I can tell.

    However, I was making a visual and conceptual point that it is not too great a leap to make between the singular, dimensionless point and a black hole, a Point Singularity.

    The question that remains is whether there could still be an outpouring of space through a black hole that could explain negative energy and an inpouring of space around the central black holes in the centre of each galaxy that clusters the stars by counteracting this negative energy, effectively giving black holes a greater 'gravitational effect' on space time than their mass alone would suggest.
     
  7. Jun 6, 2013 #6
    Google Poplowski. He developed a universe inside Bh event horizon model. Using what he terms torsion and spin.

    http://www.nikodempoplawski.com/publications.html [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2017
  8. Jun 6, 2013 #7

    bapowell

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    No, this is wrong. "Singularity" does not mean "point". It refers to parts of the physical manifold at which the theory essentially breaks. The only thing that big bang and black hole singularities have in common is that they are spacelike; you should not ascribe similar physics to them because the theory doesn't work at either one. The expectation is that a complete quantum theory of gravity will "resolve" these singularities by replacing them with an operative physical theory.

    Is it your conception that the big bang happened at a point, and this is why the singularity itself should also be a point? If so, this is a very common misconception -- the big bang did not occur at a single point, but everywhere at once.
     
  9. Jun 8, 2013 #8
    A simple way to think about the answer to your question is that the singularities are likely different: the BB is the beginning of stuff and a black hole is the end of stuff.....At the BB everything is expanding, at a BH everything is condensing....it is thought they exhibit different spacetimes....Penrose says they have very different curvatures via his Weyl curvature hypothesis [explained in the link below]....note that spacetime curvature is gravity.


    Brian Greene says:

    In an earlier discussion on this subject pervect had a nice succinct answer:

    John Baez has this to say:

    http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/BlackHoles/universe.html


    You can get some additional ideas via Roger Penrose here:

    http://epaper.kek.jp/e06/PAPERS/THESPA01.PDF

    BEFORE THE BIG BANG: AN OUTRAGEOUS NEW PERSPECTIVE AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR PARTICLE PHYSICS
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  10. Jun 8, 2013 #9
    Some people get very excited about black holes and speculate about other universes and so on but could it be that they are nothing more than a denser form of matter with sufficient gravitation field that light cannot escape? Nothing more than that?
     
  11. Jun 8, 2013 #10

    bapowell

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    Exactly.
     
  12. Jun 9, 2013 #11
    Occam strikes again?
     
  13. Jun 10, 2013 #12
    Tzikin:..

    I haven't read all that much about white holes.....so I have no comparisons for the comments
    here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole

    but some might be of interest to you.....stuff is ejected from theoretical white holes, if they exist, unlike black holes which swallow stuff....
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook




Similar Discussions: Why do I never hear that the BB was caused by a collapsing black hole?
  1. Do black holes vanish ? (Replies: 16)

Loading...