Why do we spend so little time learning grammar in college?

[Hornbein]

@Hornbein: they give us the syllabus, and the criterion for passing, and then they tell us we cannot fail the number of students who actually would fail by those criteria, even if those students do not attend either class or office hours, nor turn in homework. It poses a difficult challenge.

In these days of high tuition, students are a valuable asset.
Teddy Kennedy was expelled from Harvard for cheating on an exam. Henry Ford II was expelled from someplace for buying his thesis. So maybe things were different in the old days.

 

[symbolipoint]

At most of the schools I've looked at, college algebra (which is taken before precalculus) is a remedial course

I guess things have changed in the last couple of decades. What I stated was the way of expressing(or understanding) the levels but seemingly no longer. Could also be, depends on region or district.

 

[Rive]

isn't that the purpose of entrance interviews and exams? To weed out those lacking the competence and skills?

I think that functionality is more and more taken over by the first few semesters instead.
It might be a bit slower and bit more wasteful, but I think it's actually better this way.

... We offer remedial math programs so you can learn basic math while studying advanced math."

(To clarify: I'm not espousing this as my personal opinion that we should just let them drown, I'm simply asking: isn't this the way it is supposed to work? The system operating as it's supposed to operate?)

Maybe not, but if you want to widen the base you need to be ready to remedy the variations in background.
Not everybody has the chance for suitable pre-uni education.

 

[Rive]

Most of the curriculum in English classes in high school is about reading and analyzing literature, not grammar.

I think it's actually good that way, with a bit of caveat.
Reading and analyzing is good, but it could be better by adding more actual usage. That's the real deal.
...and the call for more grammar will come naturally when it's no longer adequate and more will be needed and used.

Grammar alone is just a bunch of rules. If you don't have a level in writing, reading, and: thinking then those rules are just dead.

The universities need to have courses that are strictly about grammar.

There, too, I would prefer (scientific) literature. With actual usage.
And I would pepper it up with some 'popular science talk' too...

 

[martinbn]

The universities cannot reject everyone and stay in business.

The universities need students that are paying tuition to stay in business. Universities rely on the money they make from students' paying tuition to pay the salaries of the faculty.

Two things: first if the universities require a certain level of english for entrance that will not decrease the number of students, because many people want to go to college, it will instead make people prepare for those requirements. They'll will study more. Second, I don't think the statment is true. There are countries where you don't pay for education, the universities work, there are planty of students, and they don't have problems with the grammer. And it is not because their grammer is easier. Have you tried to study german?

 

[Bandersnatch]

grammer

*cough*
It's gramm ar.
*runs away*

 

[martinbn]

*cough*
It's gramm ar.
*runs away*

This is for the spelling thread. Funny enough I cannot spell in my own language, which has almost strict letter to sound corespondence.

 

[DaveC426913]

Grammar snobs run the world. They hear a dangling participle and think "idiot," not "interesting perspective." Mix up "their" and "there," and suddenly your brilliant idea sounds like garbage. But say the exact same thing with perfect syntax, and everyone nods along.

You make a good point, I am embarrassed to say.

Mentally, I was considering that a "there" vs. "their" error is a fair sign of someone whose wisdom might be doubtful, but even as I thought the words I realized that's just not a good metric anymore.

It's loosely comparable to "a person with tattoos is more likely to be a criminal". It might have been true-ish once-upon-time (or not), but it's certainly an unwarranted prejudice now.

Poor grammar and lack of education do not go hand-in-hand anymore. It can't be used as a metric.

 

[DaveC426913]

And it is not because their grammer is easier.

*cough*
It's gramm ar.
*runs away*

You misunderstand him.

An easy Grammer:

 

[Mark44]

High schools require students to learn or study two years of a "foreign language" which also contain some very sharp focus on Grammar;

I'm not sure whether this has ever been true, in general. However, colleges used to require two years of foreign language study in high school, but many have dropped this requirement, as far as I understand.

It comes in the form of the requirement of two semesters of a Modern Foreign Language,

I believe it was two years, not two semesters, but as I said, I believe this is no longer a requirement at many colleges.

 

[pinball1970]

Isn't that what grade school is for?
Why waste time in uni on the basics?

Isn't that what application interviews and entrance exams are for? If the prospective student didn't bother to get his three Rs squared away before getting to uni, then he's rejected.

That's how the system is supposed to work, right?

I agree with you. I'm not sure when grammar finished and English composition and analysis began at school, my memory says 12/13 or so.
After that is quality of writing, style.

From experience, the standard of grammar from intelligent kids coming into business, is a little shocking at times. (Manchester UK)

Then again, the level of "worldly"knowledge I find shockingly low also.

That could be just an age thing.

 

[Mark44]

Thread is reopened after cleanup of a post in violation of forum rules and replies to it.

 

[gmax137]

I'm not sure when grammar finished and English composition and analysis began at school, my memory says 12/13 or so.

When I was in high school and undergrad, we had to write essays in english class, and in other classes. Grammar mistakes were circled in red and the grade reduced as appropriate. So "composition" included grammar lessons in a learn-by-doing mode.

 

[difalcojr]

I see people with Bachelor's Degrees use predicate pronouns that don't match the antecedent all the time. For instance, many college graduates will write: "I'm older than her" instead of "I'm older than she."

The phrase "I am older than her" is grammatically correct in English.

Should universities in the United States of America require students to take courses on English grammar?

Some still might. At the UC's back when, a written entrance test was administered, and, those whose writing skill was sub-par, they then had to take a mandatory, additional English supplemental class, first thing after starting regular classes. The entrance test just posed a general question, and you had just a short amount of time to write a short response, a short essay.

My English classes in 7th, 8th, and 9th grades did cover diagramming in the mid-1990s. But I have heard that English classes in middle schools and high schools unfortunately don't cover diagramming any more.

Diagramming was a known solution. You had it 3 years too late, even. I remember it from 4th-6th grades. Everyone loved it; you got to go to the blackboard and draw the diagram. It taught sentence structure, just after you had gotten better at reading in the lower grades. It taught you about subject and object, nouns, pronouns, verbs, articles, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, conjunctions, etc. You got to learn sentence structure from the inside out. That's the good and already proven solution. Not sure why not still used. https://www.amazon.com/Sister-Bernadettes-Barking-Dog-Diagramming/dp/0156034433?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[pinball1970]

When I was in high school and undergrad, we had to write essays in english class, and in other classes. Grammar mistakes were circled in red and the grade reduced as appropriate. So "composition" included grammar lessons in a learn-by-doing mode.

Spelling mistakes and bad grammar really irritated my teachers post 'O' level, this was Ordinary examinations for 16 year olds.
By the time I was studying A levels for university entry I had at least one comment.

"Tony (I was not Pinball then) you are giving me enough to do marking your poor inorganic chemistry knowledge, I do not need a distraction of your lack of appreciation of the English language."

That hurt a bit, liked Chemistry, just not inorganic.

 

[sevensages]

The phrase "I am older than her" is grammatically correct in English.

https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/pronouns/nominative-case/

What does everyone else think about the above quote by difalcojr? What does the quote by difalcojr indicate about the accuracy of what I wrote in the OP?

 

[gmax137]

It makes me wonder, "you are older than her *what*"

Older than her sister? Older than her stale jokes?

 

[martinbn]

https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/pronouns/nominative-case/

What does everyone else think about the above quote by difalcojr? What does the quote by difalcojr indicate about the accuracy of what I wrote in the OP?

I think the accusative form is correct. If you insist on the nominative you need a verb. So I would say that "I am older than her" and "I am older than she is" are both correct, but "I am older than she" is not. I believe that is how it is in all other European languages.

 

[martinbn]

https://www.grammarbook.com/blog/pronouns/nominative-case/

What does everyone else think about the above quote by difalcojr? What does the quote by difalcojr indicate about the accuracy of what I wrote in the OP?

From the link you provided

Nominative nouns and pronouns are subjects that perform the action in the sentence.

What is the action "she" is performing in the sentence "I am older than she" ?

 

[symbolipoint]

"I am older than is she".
Not certain just how to analyze that but it seems good to me.
But can to be older or younger connect as linking?

 

[sevensages]

From the link you provided



What is the action "she" is performing in the sentence "I am older than she" ?

"She" is not performing any action in the sentence "I am older than she." You are looking at a usage of the nominative case that does not apply in the sentence "I am older than she." You are looking at a usage of the nominative case for a noun or pronoun that is the subject in a sentence. There is another time to use a predicate nominative other than the subject of a sentence.

My link says "The nominative case in English is used for a noun or pronoun that is the subject or the subject complement in a sentence." Under the heading "Nominative case: Predicate nouns and pronouns", my link says "When a noun renames a sentence subject, typically after the linking verb "to be", it is a predicate noun or pronoun (a subject complement)."

 

[Rive]

What does everyone else think about the above quote by difalcojr?

My first thought was to look it up.
And the result was, that it's a well known rabbit hole, usually resolved by admitting both the 'her' and the 'she is' being acceptable.
And some more, depending on the country.

...but with hinting a slight difference in context/usage where they fit. But that's not really grammar, and was entirely omitted from discussion...

 

[difalcojr]

Wait! I copied that from a Bing query. Oops, no Bing. Here's the google search:

The phrase "I am older than her" is grammatically correct in informal English, but the formal, technically correct version is "I am older than she (is)". The correct choice depends on the context: use "her" for casual conversation and "she" for formal writing.

• Informal: "I am older than her" is widely understood and used in everyday speech.
• Formal: To be grammatically correct in a formal context, you should say "I am older than she". The full sentence is "I am older than she is," but the verb "is" is often omitted in comparisons, leaving "she" as the subject of the implied verb.

Guess it's that implied verb from using the conjunction 'than'.

On one other point, only the first person, singular pronoun "I" and "you" are used as objects, as the accusative. 'I am I' is correct, not 'I am me.' 'You are you' is correct as subject and object. Otherwise, it's 'he/she/it' as subjects and 'him/her/it' as pronoun objects. Same rule hold for plurals, I think. My memory of this, anyway.

 

[martinbn]

My link says "The nominative case in English is used for a noun or pronoun that is the subject or the subject complement in a sentence." Under the heading "Nominative case: Predicate nouns and pronouns", my link says "When a noun renames a sentence subject, typically after the linking verb "to be", it is a predicate noun or pronoun (a subject complement)."

This is definitely not the case. In the sentence "I am older than she", the pronoun "she" is not renaming the subject of the sentence "I". Look at the examples they give

Examples: Predicate Pronoun

The winner of the wine decanter is you. (Nominative-case pronoun you renames the subject, winner.)

The document’s author is he. (Nominative-case pronoun he renames the subject, author.)

The last ones to know about the surprise party were you and I. (Nominative-case pronouns you and I rename the subject, ones.)

 

[Muu9]

Apparently, "her" is correct if you use "than" as a preposition: https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/i’m-older-than-her-she.3935485/

 

[difalcojr]

My first thought was to look it up.
And the result was, that it's a well known rabbit hole, usually resolved by admitting both the 'her' and the 'she is' being acceptable.
And some more, depending on the country.

...but with hinting a slight difference in context/usage where they fit. But that's not really grammar, and was entirely omitted from discussion...

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-I-am-ol... am older than,is “I am older than she [is].”
Yes, you are right, a rabbit hole. Found this web site which, I think, explains most all of it so far discussed in this thread. I was taught that you usually used 'her', and, if you used 'she', you had to add another verb, like 'she is' or 'she seems' or 'she...'. Otherwise, it was bad grammar. But, since there is no actual grammar rule to support this choice, I now read, 'she' has been used without adding an additional verb needed, incorrectly, I think still. 'Than' is then seen as a preposition, instead of a conjunction we were taught it was. Who thinks English is easy?! Both Bing and Google say each way is grammatically correct to say it; they're confused too. Funny, how things change.

 

[Rive]

Funny, how things change.

Every living language is in a constant change. As long as there is something to be told a way to tell it will be made.

The history of languages is pretty interesting, by my opinion. But where most people losing it is, when they forget that the present is not some end point in the story.

Just like with the evolution, by the way: it's not just the past, it's still going on...

 

[sevensages]

Wait! I copied that from a Bing query. Oops, no Bing. Here's the google search:

The phrase "I am older than her" is grammatically correct in informal English, but the formal, technically correct version is "I am older than she (is)". The correct choice depends on the context: use "her" for casual conversation and "she" for formal writing.

• Informal: "I am older than her" is widely understood and used in everyday speech.
• Formal: To be grammatically correct in a formal context, you should say "I am older than she". The full sentence is "I am older than she is," but the verb "is" is often omitted in comparisons, leaving "she" as the subject of the implied verb.

Guess it's that implied verb from using the conjunction 'than'.

On one other point, only the first person, singular pronoun "I" and "you" are used as objects, as the accusative. 'I am I' is correct, not 'I am me.' 'You are you' is correct as subject and object. Otherwise, it's 'he/she/it' as subjects and 'him/her/it' as pronoun objects. Same rule hold for plurals, I think. My memory of this, anyway.

The word "ain't" is grammatically correct in informal English. The sentence "She don't know" is grammatically correct in informal English.

The rules of formal English are what matter for this discussion.

 

[sevensages]

k.

From the link you provided



What is the action "she" is performing in the sentence "I am older than she" ?

I still think that "I am older than she" is correct grammar. But I now think my reasoning is wrong in post #81. She is performing the action of being older than I.

 

[martinbn]

k.

I still think that "I am older than she" is correct grammar. But I now think my reasoning is wrong in post #81. She is performing the action of being older than I.

Yes, and that action (or state) is discribed by the verb "to be", so it should be there and the sentence should be "I am older than she is".