Why do we spend so little time learning grammar in college?

[sevensages]

Yes, and that action (or state) is discribed by the verb "to be", so it should be there and the sentence should be "I am older than she is".

In "I am older than she", the word "is" after the word she is implied. Both "I am older than she" and "I am older than she is" are grammatically correct.

"I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect.

 

[martinbn]

In "I am older than she", the word "is" after the word she is implied. Both "I am older than she" and "I am older than she is" are grammatically correct.

Why is it implied? Can you quote the grammar rules about which words are implied and need not be written? If you skip words, because they are implied, then it seems that you are using informal English, and you made your case against it.

"I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect.

Why?

 

[sevensages]

Why is it implied? Can you quote the grammar rules about which words are implied and need not be written? If you skip words, because they are implied, then it seems that you are using informal English, and you made your case against it.

I admit that you might be right about this.

Why?

The link I posted in post #76 says why "I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect.

 

[martinbn]

The link I posted in post #76 says why "I am older than her" is grammatically incorrect.

No, it doesn't! It just explains what nominative case is for pronouns.

 

[sevensages]

No, it doesn't! It just explains what nominative case is for pronouns.

My link says when to use the nominative case and when to use the accusative case. My link says to use the accusative case when a pronoun receives the action of a verb. In the sentence "I am older than her", "her" is not receiving the action of a verb.

 

[martinbn]

My link says when to use the nominative case and when to use the accusative case. My link says to use the accusative case when a pronoun receives the action of a verb. In the sentence "I am older than her", "her" is not receiving the action of a verb.

Here is what Merriam and Webster say
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/than

than 2 of 2 preposition
: in comparison with

you are older than me

 

[sevensages]

Here is what Merriam and Webster say
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/than

I admit that if the word "than" is used as a preposition, your link does have as an example sentence "You are older than me".

But if the word than is used as a conjunction, your link has the example phrase "older than I am".

I am confused about this now. Apparently I needed to take a high quality course on English grammar in college, but my alma mater did not offer courses on English grammar. I've just proven my point in the OP.

 

[CompromisedAnon]

My stance is this: Why are my tax dollars going to educate someone who can barely put a sentence together verbally to say nothing about a written paragraph upon graduation?

So that you live in a society where the people around you are guaranteed to have at least a basic functional understanding of the world around them. So that they have the skills to communicate effectively and learn new skills. So that they understand the basic economic structures and incentives that govern their lives.

The reason you encounter the problems stated is a lack of investment in education and public resources in the US. The US education system certainly does not prepare students to adequately function in their society.

I agree with sevensages that more investment in education at ALL levels is the solution here. To what degree we invest, how we invest, and how our investments are distributed are all good questions. But it's clear that NO investment is NOT the answer.

None of them are willing to do any manual work, not even the least exertive.

Most people would rather avoid intensive manual labor. Laziness does exist, but for most people it is an ephemeral state that they grow out of or slump back into throughout their lives. Everyone, no matter their track record or background, should be given at least a chance at a functional education so that they can operate in society. You can't know who will and won't benefit from an attempt at basic education beforehand. In fact, most people become more productive and contribute more to society after being educated, so it's worth the risk.

Notice, this is an argument about a BASIC, FUNCTIONAL education. Acceptance into, and funding for, more specialized programs should be scrutinized based on their holistic return on investment.

 

[Mark44]

I think the accusative form is correct.

AFAIK, we don't have that in English. For nouns the last vestige of case structure is in the appending of "'s" to show possession. Pronouns still show some of the structure that nouns mostly lost somewhere around the time of Middle English

I believe that is how it is in all other European languages.

Certainly the case in German and other Germanic languages, as well as all Slavic languages, but not so much in the Romance languages. For example, French and Spanish nouns don't change form when they are used in different parts of sentences, but pronouns do; e.g. Je and moi in French, and Yo and mi in Spanish.

And the result was, that it's a well known rabbit hole, usually resolved by admitting both the 'her' and the 'she is' being acceptable.

Amen to that.

The word "ain't" is grammatically correct in informal English. The sentence "She don't know" is grammatically correct in informal English.

Seems to me that this is akin to saying that these examples are grammatically correct in illiterate English. "Me talky goodly." -- Grammatically correct?

 

[Mark44]

The reason you encounter the problems stated is a lack of investment in education and public resources in the US.

That's the usual reason given by teachers (who certainly are not unbiased observers), but there are reasons beyond the over-simplified one you gave here. Spending at the state level varies considerably in the US, with New York state spending over $33,000 per student all the way down to about $9400 for Idaho. There are many more factors besides the one you gave; namely, parental involvement, whether reading occurs in the family, amount of time passively viewing TV or smart phone, etc. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-state

 

[martinbn]

But if the word than is used as a conjunction, your link has the example phrase "older than I am".

This has the verb, not just the pronoun.

 

[martinbn]

AFAIK, we don't have that in English. For nouns the last vestige of case structure is in the appending of "'s" to show possession. Pronouns still show some of the structure that nouns mostly lost somewhere around the time of Middle English

Yes, I meant the pronouns.

Certainly the case in German and other Germanic languages, as well as all Slavic languages, but not so much in the Romance languages. For example, French and Spanish nouns don't change form when they are used in different parts of sentences, but pronouns do; e.g. Je and moi in French, and Yo and mi in Spanish.

Yes, I know, my language doesn't have cases for the nouns, just for the pronouns. I think it never did, and it is classified as Slavic.

 

[Mark44]

Yes, I know, my language doesn't have cases for the nouns, just for the pronouns. I think it never did, and it is classified as Slavic.

What language is that? I studied Russian in high school and in college, and relatively recently studied Slovene and Croat for trips to Slovenia and Croatia. As far as I know, all of the Slavic languages have declensions for nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, typically 6 cases for singular and 6 more for plural, although I believe Polish has 7 cases. In addition, aside from singular and plural forms for these words, Slovene also has a dual form so that one would use a different pronoun for "we" depending on whether "we" includes only two people versus more than two.

 

[Averagesupernova]

The reason you encounter the problems stated is a lack of investment in education and public resources in the US. The US education system certainly does not prepare students to adequately function in their society.

The point is that there is a point we no longer accept the poor return on investment. We should choose to fix the problem instead of throwing more money at it without results and then just saying we should let the universities solve it.
-
If you read my all of my posts in this thread you will see my position is not to simply cut funding and let people be dumb.

 

[symbolipoint]

k.

I still think that "I am older than she" is correct grammar. But I now think my reasoning is wrong in post #81. She is performing the action of being older than I.

Depends... Is the verb used as a linking verb or not?

 

[symbolipoint]

My position*, which still needs clarification even to myself is, Colleges and Universities should require a student to at least learn from a remedial course which could or may or should include a component of Grammar. Not necessarily a remediation course focused only on Grammar.

That should be no big deal. Do incoming assessment testing and if student deficient in sentence structure, writing mechanics, or such other associated, then school should have available one or two remedial course and student would be required to enroll in one or both of them. Something like that was done at C.C.s many years ago; and I assume still is done.


* I really meant, my "belief".

 

[vela]

I always thought that it's not that important. As long as the point comes across right? Then I had to do tech support via email. I really changed my opinion in a hurry.

One time, some punk made a comment about how grammar wasn't important because we understood what he meant. My English professor friend wholeheartedly agreed and added that it was best to avoid giving the impression to others that one is educated and literate.

When I was in grad school, the first time I returned lab reports I pointed out a bunch of errors that a lot of the students made in their writing, e.g., using affect when they meant effect. Some guy remarked, "Is this an English class?" I noted they could learn to fix these mistakes now or look like an idiot when they get a job.

These days, most of my students are engineering majors. When the topic comes up, I often mention that I did a lot more writing when working as an engineer than I ever thought I would. If they think that not being able to write well won't matter much in engineering, they may be sadly mistaken.

In addition to the examples about grammar cited in this thread, too many high school graduates do not have a mastery of basic mathematics. In the community college (i.e. first two years of college) where I taught mathematics for 20 years, the bulk of the classes we taught were remedial courses in arithmetic and algebra.

When I was in college, some students were complaining that the math department refused to offer a course in algebra and trig. The department's official stance was it shouldn't have to offer a remedial course since student accepted into the university presumably had already mastered those topics. If students felt they needed to brush up on basic math, they should go take a course at a community college.

A few years after I had graduated, I found out that department had capitulated and offered a remedial math course. If I recall correctly, it didn't count as a real course. It couldn't be used to satisfy any of the requirements for a bachelor's degree.

The English department had offered a remedial course for years. I think students who were accepted to the university but were deficient in writing skills were required to take the course the first quarter they attended the university. It was the same deal as the remedial math course. It didn't count toward anything.

As an example, a woman friend of mine, who holds a PhD in Biology, believed that, for example, "Mary and I" was proper grammar no matter whether this was the subject of a sentence or a direct or indirect object in that sentence.

In my experience, that's a really common mistake. People seem to be afraid of the word me because they were taught it's not Mary and me went to the store but Mary and I went to the store, so they overcorrect and use I everywhere.

I recall an interview in a magazine where Bill Clinton said was quoted saying so-and-so "gave Hillary and I" something. A grammar nazi wrote a letter to point out the mistake, and sarcastically added, "Give I a break!"

 

[symbolipoint]

When I was in grad school, the first time I returned lab reports I pointed out a bunch of errors that a lot of the students made in their writing, e.g., using affect when they meant effect. Some guy remarked, "Is this an English class?" I noted they could learn to fix these mistakes now or look like an idiot when they get a job.

I agree with you on this.

 

[symbolipoint]

In my experience, that's a really common mistake. People seem to be afraid of the word me because they were taught it's not Mary and me went to the store but Mary and I went to the store, so they overcorrect and use I everywhere.

Seen that type of thing come up a couple times myself.

 

[sevensages]

Depends... Is the verb used as a linking verb or not?

I don't think that there is a linking verb in the sentence "I am older than she."

 

[symbolipoint]

While not the same as n English or Grammar class, one of the sci departments conducted its own mathematical assessment test for students of the general college/uni level course. Students who could not perform well were REQUIRED to enroll in a remedial survey course to build or rebuild some essential competence. Either you enrolled and attended that remedial course or the department would administratively drop you from their general beginning course.

The content of that remedial math course? Very common basic Algebra and simple very simple Trigonometry.

 

[sevensages]

This has the verb, not just the pronoun.

I am not 100% sure what your point is.

When you wrote "This has the verb, not just the pronoun", are you trying to imply that the example in your link from Merriam-Webster in which the word "than" is used as a preposition must be superior to the example in which the word "than" is used as a conjunction because the example in which the word "than" is a preposition has a verb in it?

If not, what is your point in post #101?

 

[Herman Trivilino]

One of the problems with education in the USA is that it's up to each state to decide upon what it will and won't teach. In some states we have a state-mandated program of remedial education that involves testing to see if new college students do indeed need remediation on things like grammar.

What I don't think should be tolerated is college-educated people with degrees using blatant grammatical errors such as double negatives, particularly if they are educators.

 

[sevensages]

One of the problems with education in the USA is that it's up to each state to decide upon what it will and won't teach. In some states we have a state-mandated program of remedial education that involves testing to see if new college students do indeed need remediation on things like grammar.

What I don't think should be tolerated is college-educated people with degrees using blatant grammatical errors such as double negatives, particularly if they are educators.

The colleges should require students take high quality courses on English grammar.

 

[sevensages]

One time, some punk made a comment about how grammar wasn't important because we understood what he meant. My English professor friend wholeheartedly agreed and added that it was best to avoid giving the impression to others that one is educated and literate.

When I was in grad school, the first time I returned lab reports I pointed out a bunch of errors that a lot of the students made in their writing, e.g., using affect when they meant effect. Some guy remarked, "Is this an English class?" I noted they could learn to fix these mistakes now or look like an idiot when they get a job.

These days, most of my students are engineering majors. When the topic comes up, I often mention that I did a lot more writing when working as an engineer than I ever thought I would. If they think that not being able to write well won't matter much in engineering, they may be sadly mistaken.


When I was in college, some students were complaining that the math department refused to offer a course in algebra and trig. The department's official stance was it shouldn't have to offer a remedial course since student accepted into the university presumably had already mastered those topics. If students felt they needed to brush up on basic math, they should go take a course at a community college.

A few years after I had graduated, I found out that department had capitulated and offered a remedial math course. If I recall correctly, it didn't count as a real course. It couldn't be used to satisfy any of the requirements for a bachelor's degree.

The English department had offered a remedial course for years. I think students who were accepted to the university but were deficient in writing skills were required to take the course the first quarter they attended the university. It was the same deal as the remedial math course. It didn't count toward anything.


In my experience, that's a really common mistake. People seem to be afraid of the word me because they were taught it's not Mary and me went to the store but Mary and I went to the store, so they overcorrect and use I everywhere.

I recall an interview in a magazine where Bill Clinton said was quoted saying so-and-so "gave Hillary and I" something. A grammar nazi wrote a letter to point out the mistake, and sarcastically added, "Give I a break!"

And Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar! This is exactly the sort of thing I was writing about in the OP.

 

[sevensages]

Learning to read and write with proper grammar is the most fundamental part of an education.

 

[Mark44]

In my experience, that's a really common mistake. People seem to be afraid of the word me because they were taught it's not Mary and me went to the store but Mary and I went to the store, so they overcorrect and use I everywhere.

I think this is exactly the reason; that and not understanding that "I" should be used when it appears in the subject as opposed to "me" when it appears in the predicate. People intuitively know that they should say or write "I went to the store" or "Come to the store with me," but get confused when someone else is involved such as "Mary and I" vs "Mary and me."

Learning to read and write with proper grammar is the most fundamental part of an education.

Certainly fundamental, but I wouldn't call it "the most fundamental part." Besides "readin" and "ritin," there's also "rithmetic." You know, the three Rs.

 

[Rive]

Learning to read and write with proper grammar is the most fundamental part of an education.

Well, I think you need some thoughts to be expressed first to have any use for proper grammar.
Grammar does not makes those thoughts.

 

[martinbn]

What language is that? I studied Russian in high school and in college, and relatively recently studied Slovene and Croat for trips to Slovenia and Croatia. As far as I know, all of the Slavic languages have declensions for nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, typically 6 cases for singular and 6 more for plural, although I believe Polish has 7 cases. In addition, aside from singular and plural forms for these words, Slovene also has a dual form so that one would use a different pronoun for "we" depending on whether "we" includes only two people versus more than two.

That is very impressive. My langauge is Bulgarian. May be it isn't Slavic, but I think it is classified as such.

 

[martinbn]

I am not 100% sure what your point is.

When you wrote "This has the verb, not just the pronoun", are you trying to imply that the example in your link from Merriam-Webster in which the word "than" is used as a preposition must be superior to the example in which the word "than" is used as a conjunction because the example in which the word "than" is a preposition has a verb in it?

If not, what is your point in post #101?

No, my point is that their example is "I am older than she is", not "...than she".