Why Does the Lagrangian of a Free Particle Depend Only on Velocity Magnitude?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of the Lagrangian for a free particle, specifically why it is dependent only on the magnitude of velocity rather than individual velocity components or position coordinates. The inquiry seeks both physical and mathematical explanations, with an emphasis on foundational concepts without assuming prior knowledge of kinetic energy or Newton's laws.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the Lagrangian cannot depend on individual velocity components or position coordinates, seeking clarification on the underlying principles.
  • Another participant suggests that the dependence on overall velocity magnitude is due to rotational symmetry, arguing that the direction of velocity should not affect the physics in the absence of external forces.
  • Translational symmetry is also mentioned as a reason for the independence from positional coordinates, as location does not influence energy without external forces.
  • Some participants note that while the Lagrangian can be expressed in various coordinate systems, certain systems may simplify the mathematical representation.
  • There is a suggestion that the original question may not have been adequately addressed by earlier responses, prompting further clarification on the relationship between position, velocity components, and the Lagrangian.
  • One participant expresses a realization of their understanding after engaging with the discussion, indicating a personal resolution to the inquiry.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the adequacy of previous answers to the original question, indicating some disagreement on the clarity and completeness of the explanations provided. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific reasons why the Lagrangian is structured as it is.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express uncertainty about the implications of symmetry principles and their direct connection to the formulation of the Lagrangian, highlighting potential gaps in understanding. The discussion also reflects a dependence on the definitions of terms such as "energy" and "coordinate systems."

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I've heard it said that the Lagrangian of a free particle cannot possibly be a function of any position coordinate, or individual velocity component, but it is a function of the total magnitude of velocity. Why is this the case? I'd be grateful for any pointers in the direction of either a physical or a mathematical explanation

EDIT: I should make it clearer that this is assuming no prior knowledge of kinetic energy or Newton's laws
 
Last edited:
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The Lagrangian can be expressed about any coordinate that can be written in the form:
\begin{equation}
\frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{∂L}{∂\dot{q}_i}\right)-\frac{∂L}{∂q_i}=Q_i
\end{equation}
Where L is the Lagrangian (kinetic energy - potential energy)
 
Actually, after a few minutes pondering, I'd like to attempt an answer myself, based on symmetry.

The Lagrangian cannot depend on individual velocity components (but it can depend on the overall magnitude of the velocity) because of rotational symmetry - with no external forces acting on the particle, how could the direction of it's velocity have any impact on the physics of the situation?

As for the positional coordinates, I presume these can't affect the Lagrangian because of translational symmetry. (Again, with no external forces acting on the particle, the location has no bearing on its energy, which after all is what the Lagrangian describes)

Have I got the right idea here, or am I making false assumptions?
 
Of course, the energies are usually much easier to express in certain coordinate systems.
 
FeX32 said:
The Lagrangian can be expressed about any coordinate that can be written in the form:
\begin{equation}
\frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{∂L}{∂\dot{q}_i}\right)-\frac{∂L}{∂q_i}=Q_i
\end{equation}
Where L is the Lagrangian (kinetic energy - potential energy)

I may be being blindingly stupid here, but I don't see how that answers my original question. What is it about the position and velocity components of a free particle which means they cannot fit that equation?
 
the location has no bearing on its energy

There you have it
 
Favicon said:
I may be being blindingly stupid here, but I don't see how that answers my original question. What is it about the position and velocity components of a free particle which means they cannot fit that equation?

They can fit the equation. Just find any coordinate "q" that you can write the energies in.
 
Excellent, thank you Fex. It seems that just after asking for help is when I usually solve a problem myself..
 
To answer you question directly. There is an infinite amount of coordinate systems that you can express the Lagrangian in. The thing is, usually one or two of them are the simplest, mathematically.
 
  • #10
No problem. Yes, it seems you understand it essentially.
 

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