Why i don't believe in ghosts as potrayed in popular culture?

[Ivan Seeking]

I think you missed the gist of my post. I didn't merely say "evidence", I said "repeatable and independently verifiable evidence".

I understood what you meant.

If someone, somewhere found a phenom that stuck around long enough for other investigators to test and get the same results - if news reporters could go into the house and film chairs flying around, I am confident the buzz would rapidly snowball to world news.

That is an assumption that I don't think is supported by the facts. The ghost hunter groups go out to investigate allegedly repeatable phenomenon, and allegedly they get evidence. Scientists sometimes go out and allegedly get evidence based on the claims made. And there it ends. It is all still considered fringe.

I see no way to obtain evidence that the scientific community would accept, even if the most striking claims are completely genuine .

There is a big difference between "repeatable", and "repeatable on demand".

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Consider the Ghost Hunter's investigation of a lighthouse. The reason that they investigated is because they were asked to by the Coast Guard due to the frequency of the claims of ghostly encounters, by CG personnel. The GHs obtained video of a chair that allegedly moved on its own.

How many scientists have investigated to verify the claims made by the US Coast Guard? Zero. How many would even consider such a venture? If they obtained evidence that seemed to confirm the claims made, it would still appear only on the GH show. No one would publish it.

 

[DaveC426913]

There is a big difference between "repeatable", and "repeatable on demand".

Actually, I was not making a distinction.

Point being that, like the discovery of Coelacanth or gamma ray bursts, if paranormal events were to be repeatable and independently verifiable (because they persisted), then they would become accepted.

 

[LightbulbSun]

We have to define what we mean by "paranormal."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Actually, I was not making a distinction.

I know. I was.

Point being that, like the discovery of Coelacanth or gamma ray bursts, if paranormal events were to be repeatable and independently verifiable (because they persisted), then they would become accepted.

They are accepted by a majority of the population. If true, I still see no evidence that science will accept.

You tell me precisely what can be offered. In spite of probably thousands of groups claiming evidence, hundreds for sure, I don't see Nature rushing to publish any of it. Why? Because none of it qualifies as extraordinary evidence. Videos and sounds can be faked or staged. Tactile experiences can't be documented. Anecdotal accounts are not acceptable.

If what you say is true, then why don't we find a line of scientists following the Ghost Hunters? They broadcast their alleged evidence every week on TV. And there it ends.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We have to define what we mean by "paranormal."

I think it is important to avoid words like paranormal, and supernatural. Those words imply an explanation that can't be supported. At most we can say that someone had a seemingly inexplicable experience. There is no reason to assume the explanation for it. It may be that some "ghosts" are simply strange or unrecognized "normal" phenomena.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I think it is important to avoid words like paranormal, and supernatural. Those words imply an explanation that can't be supported. At most we can say that someone had a seemingly inexplicable experience. There is no reason to assume the explanation for it. It may be that some "ghosts" are simply strange or unrecognized "normal" phenomena.

Or it could be a mere illusion.

 

[DaveC426913]

If what you say is true, then why don't we find a line of scientists following the Ghost Hunters? They broadcast their alleged evidence every week on TV. And there it ends.

Well, the answer may be simpler than you think. If there really aren't ghosts, and all this evidence really is just human error and human ignorance combined with a human propensity for drama, then the scientists have got it correct.

It's really just a question of: have the scientists given it enough attention to dismiss it? It may not require a lot of attention to be dismissable. And I think that's where this argument totters on a seesaw. I don't think it takes a lot; you think it requires more.

 

[arildno]

Of course, there would be a great evolutionary advantage for ghosts to develop:
Think of the great potential for great-great...grandads to give their offspring a head start relative to the other youngsters by communicating to them their own experiences. And how they also could scare those juvenile non-descendants off a cliff by a well-timed "Mu-ha-ha..!"

Thus, we may conclude that ghosts exist. Or possibly not.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, the answer may be simpler than you think. If there really aren't ghosts, and all this evidence really is just human error and human ignorance combined with a human propensity for drama, then the scientists have got it correct.

It's really just a question of: have the scientists given it enough attention to dismiss it? It may not require a lot of attention to be dismissable. And I think that's where this argument totters on a seesaw. I don't think it takes a lot; you think it requires more.

Of course I am rather biased on this one. Since my wife and I had our own experience, I am personally 100% sure [without invoking philosophical limitations] that there is a mystery wrt to some claims, but that proves nothing to anyone else.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years. How was I supposed to demonstrate these effects to someone else without having them live in our apartment? Does this limitation make them any less real?

 

[DaveC426913]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years. How was I supposed to demonstrate these effects to someone else without having them live in our apartment? Does this limitation make them any less real?

No. They are real. It's a particular explanation for their cause that can't be verified (by anyone, including - as I'm sure you'll agree - you).

 

[LightbulbSun]

Lets not forget that studies have shown that eyewitness testimony is pretty unreliable even when it comes to basic details.

 

[LightbulbSun]

One more thought. We experienced something like a dozen [maybe a bit more...a lot of time has passed now] events over a period of about two years.

Where do you get this figure from?

 

[DaveC426913]

Where do you get this figure from?

What an odd question. You do realize he is speaking about his own personal experiences? You want him to call himself as an authority?

 

[michinobu]

How many scientists run out to verify the evidence alleged by the Ghost Hunters? As soon as someone does something like this, they are relegated to the fringe. I would imagine that there are thousands of these ghost hunting groups claiming evidence, all over the world.

If you mean that we are supposed to capture Casper in a jar and take him back to the lab, tell me how.

If this was something like ball lighting, or earthquake lights, where the scientific community was willing to accept evidence in the form of videos and photos, we would be done. But unlike those phenomena, any real "ghost" phenomenon carries the implication of an extraordinary claim; requiring extraordinary evidence. I have yet to think of any evidence that could suffice, no matter what the explanation is for these claims and experiences. The best that we can do is to rule out the claims that can be explained.

Maybe because the realm of ghost "evidence" is filled with an ocean of bull-**** is the reason behind why there are so few scientists with any enthusiasm in trying to verify any kind of evidence related to ghosts.

Like, you could have a scientist leave a camera recording in a supposed empty room in a haunted house, and eventually it pick up these apparitions. With the results given by the camera, the scientist could tell everyone that there wasn't anyone in the room at the time - at least no one physical - and use this as "evidence" that ghosts exist. But, this really doesn't tell anyone anything, because we have no way of proving that there weren't people in the room. Nor, does it explain how could the camera pick them up if they're not physical objects existing in space considering how cameras only pick up physical objects existing in space in which light bounces off of them and into the camera lens.

For other explanations, such as audio or temperature changes or magnetic fields or what-not, they too don't indicate anything about ghosts. Maybe scientists are too thick-headed to accept that maybe we have a spirit because they live in their own narrow world, and thus won't give enough attention to verifying the evidence out there. But, the fact of the matter is that there are way too many lies and falsified evidence out there that if a serious scientist were to try to debunk every eye-witness account, every video recording, etc. he'd eventually die from exhaustion but go insane and see ghosts himself right before he does.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

 

[arildno]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

 

[michinobu]

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

But, that's illogical. In order to prove anything, you have to prove for it - not against it. This is why the prosecuting attorney has the burden of proof in trying to convict the defendant, because we assume a natural state about anything until we have evidence to prove otherwise. We assume someone is innocent until proven guilty because by nature we're all innocent of any particular crime until we change states and commit the crime, likewise an object is assumed non-existent until it's proven to exist because the object's initial state was that it didn't exist.

If we had to disprove something first in order to reject it, then we'd all be in jail, and we'd assume that unicorns and leprechauns were real because we wouldn't be able to disprove them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

 

[Evo]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

Wow, I'll take my kitten over your maggots any day.

 

[LightbulbSun]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

It has to be distinct evidence. It can't be some anomaly that already has a natural explanation to it.

 

[DaveC426913]

No doubt, the never-ending fraud and scams make it difficult. But beyond that, I ask again, even if some of the most exotic claims are genuine, what evidence would satisfy science; specifically?

I have asked this question many times but still have no answer.

But ... ...this is as with all scientific lines of thought - evolution, BB theory, germ theory, atomic theory etc.. There's no specific tipping point, so much as a general turning of the tides. At some point, it's just considered generally accepted (or generally refuted).

 

[Hanfonius]

I couldn't agree more with this viewpoint.

While on the one hand, there are people who make claims, and defy science to offer rational explanations to prove them wrong, it is also equally wrong for science to dismiss such claims with arrogancy. Unless the claims are obviously insincere, they should warrant basic investigation at least by the scientific community.

There are many genuine and honest people who believe they have seen something 'ghostly'. Normally, they are not equipped with the knowledge to explain such events themselves, and turn to others for belief.

Unfortunately, there are many self-acclaimed experts who are capitalising on such reports, and the man on the Hackney Omnibus wants to believe them. It is human nature to want to believe in flying saucers, ghosts, yeti's, government conspiracies and so on.

I would suggest it is these self-acclaimed experts who are more damaging to the scientific understanding than the witnesses.

 

[Pythagorean]

my semi-ghost story.

I kind of debunked this myself when I went to the location the next day, but the story first:

My sister and I were walking down the street late one night in St. Cloud, Florida near a lake. We'd always go play with the toads at night.

As we walked down the street, we passed an intersecting street, all residential, and about a block down it we could see a strange humanoid shape up against a fence. It didn't have any real detail, it was all white light. But then it seemed to change form to something smaller, and jump on top of the fence, still glowing white, then it jumped down, disappearing on the other side of the fence.

When I went there the next day, I noticed it was an abandoned house and there were large picture windows in the yard behind the fence (a section of the fence had fallen over). There was also a couple cats around, one of them completely white. I figured I must have seen a combination of light tricks from the street lights and the large windows (making the humanoid shape) and a cat on the fence.

 

[ChadRichens]

How I explain my Experience.

I'm sitting in a room in broad daylight at two in the afternoon. There is one door to my right in clear visibility, and I'm sitting in a rocking chair on my laptop writing an article about String/M Theory. I "Feel a Presence" in the room with me... Look over to my left and as my head is turning I feel it move by me and out the door.

When it was in the room, I could immediately felt it there. When it was moving in the room, I could tell where it was through this feeling, And when it left the room, I could tell it was gone, not only from the room, but from anywhere near me, as if I could tell what ever I was experiencing was over.

edit by Ivan: Personal theory deleted.

 

[Ghost803]

I don't think any of the Ghost experiences are anything more than the illusions of the subconscious. I lived in India till I was ten and grew up with Ghost stories and streets that would be completely dark after seven in the evening. Open windows with no screens, and pitch black outside, only three bars separated the outside from the inside. In general, the place was scary as hell to grow up as a kid. So even now when I return to India, I am scared of the dark a little bit and have seen what I think are hallucinations of figures and heard weird noises.

But when I am in America, with a freaking street lamp everywhere and lacking tropical forests in which attractive women can lure you to certain death, I have no fear. None what so ever, I can be in pitch freaking dark and I don't get concerned. And I have never had any incidents here. I think another reason that America is lacking in really scary and widely believed stories is that it doesn't have much of a History.

Most of the cities are only a few centuries old and most of the suburbs are maybe a few decades. So you are lacking in really grisly, screwed up deaths in cities and areas populated by people. That is why most of the ghost stories in America seem to be surrounding battle fields and Native American burials.

 

[jreelawg]

I had an interesting dream the other day involving ghosts. I was in the bathroom, and suddenly and rush of coldness attacked, like cold air without the wind. I ran, and escaped, but the coldness followed me. It got me again, and I suddenly awoke and my chest was freezing cold. Of coarse, my blanket wasn't covering my chest and it was cold in the room. That is obviously just my imagination in dream world.


But, at one point in time I actually believed in some sort of shadow like thing that visited me in my sleep. I used to have sleep paralysis, and I would be awake yet unable to move or open my eyes, as I fought to break the paralysis, I could sense something in the room that seamed to be like a dark shadow. I could feel where it was in the room, and sometimes it would speak. Sometimes it would hover over me. I don't honestly believe it was a ghost or anything, but it was pretty scary, at times I was certain something was there.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As long as consciousness&living deceasedness (ghostliness?) do not have any precise indicators, no claimed "evidence" for those conditions can be accepted.

Agreed. However, you are assuming an explanation where we only have claims of phenomena. Why should we assume that ghosts have anything to do with dead people?

Thus, what CAN be done is just to disprove every "natural" explanation put forth, and be ready to disprove others, until the scientific community caves in.

Disprove every natural explanation for what; evidence that science won't accept [not that I'm saying it should be accepted]?

 

[HallsofIvy]

I had a horrible hallucination a few weeks ago. I had just woken from a short mid day nap. I was completely conscious. No lucid dreaming or dream inside a dream, I was awake. I rolled over and saw there was a patch of grey spots on my carpet maybe 3-4ft from the bed. As I focused and lean over a bit more I could see they were maggots. As if someone dumped a bowl of maggots on my carpet and they were going in and out. I was super confused. I strained my eyes and really tried to focus as if in disbelief. I saw them clearly. After a minute or two they didn't so much fade away as some hallucinations do but rather as I continued to watch, just less and less maggots came back up from the carpet until there were just a few and then none. At that point I jumped out of bed and saw up close nose to the carpet there were no maggots. Maybe that is similar to some ghost experiences?

I wouldn't call this an hallucination. If you were only half waked up I suspect what you saw were blood cells moving through your retina as if they were projected out in front of you- you can also see them when your eyes are really tired although normally they don't look like they are projected in front of you- that may be an artifact of not having been completely awake- your brain interpreted what you saw as being on the nearest surface to you. They appear as a swarm of greyish blobs- often elongated as they pass through capillary veins.