Why i don't believe in ghosts as potrayed in popular culture?

[arildno]

But, that's illogical. In order to prove anything, you have to prove for it - not against it. This is why the prosecuting attorney has the burden of proof in trying to convict the defendant, because we assume a natural state about anything until we have evidence to prove otherwise. We assume someone is innocent until proven guilty because by nature we're all innocent of any particular crime until we change states and commit the crime, likewise an object is assumed non-existent until it's proven to exist because the object's initial state was that it didn't exist.

If we had to disprove something first in order to reject it, then we'd all be in jail, and we'd assume that unicorns and leprechauns were real because we wouldn't be able to disprove them.

Not at all.
(Good) theories are first and foremost falsifiable (in contrast to bad ones, which lack falsifiability).
We will, incidentally, learn a lot about so-called para-normal phenomena if we are able to refute the specific, natural explanations for them.

As for your analogy with a courtroom, I don't get it.

 

[nottheone]

I don't know how anyone can say they don't believe in ghosts, the Ghost Hunters find something in every episode... uh, did you hear that?

Last year I was at a friends house and we saw a light in the woods where there were no houses. It looked very strange, strange enough that we went in the woods to see what it was. We walked in for about 15 minutes without getting any closer. Stranger and stranger. Then we finally saw what it was, it was the moon. It didn't look anything like the moon at first, not until it rose a ways above the horizon.

 

[Oscar Wilde]

If you look hard enough for something chances are you'll find it.

That comment aside, I have had two odd experiences. I sleepwalk about 3 times a year or so, it's nothing really special or anything. One night I woke up on the downstairs couch (after already having tucked myself into bed earlier) with a blanket over me. Nothing strange so far, thus far my experience is easily explainable. All I could hear was my fat cat snoring on the couch, but then I heard footsteps coming up from the basement. Classic cliched horror right? I'm almost positive I imagined the footsteps but honestly at the time I was terrified by what was at hand. Anyways, there's an interesting story, more or less.

My mother in particular has had odd experiences with cats. We used to have a few cats, 2 were young and one was very, very old (24). We decided to put him to sleep because his life seemed to have deteriorated. A few days later our two other cats were acting peculiar, circling around a spot on the living room, staring at it with awe. Their tails were all puffed out in defense, and their posture was indicative of the same. I've always wondered about that day, we've had another similar experience but that isn't worth detailing; it is much the same.

That's all for my washed-up ghost stories.

 

[Karl G.]

Query: could a ghost collapse a wavefunction? :) Good Argument!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Query: could a ghost collapse a wavefunction? :) Good Argument!

Not for this forum.

 

[Ghost803]

I recently had a night terror. Or atleast that's what I think it was.

I woke up around 5:30 ish in the morning, an unusual time for me. And I couldn't really get myself out of bed. I usually sleep with my fan on. When I kinda woke up though, I began to freak cause I could hear the light sound of the fan getting really loud and then really low with intervals of just a second.

It was almost like the story by Edgar Allen Poe "The Telltale Heart" when the dude could hear the sound of a heartbeat and it was really loud. Then I saw someone out of the corner of my eye. Thinking it was my roomate, I opened one of my eyes and peeked. But there was no one there.

I began to pray to Buddha, lulz. It was wierd. First time when I could really feel my heart beat like hell and was actually terrified for the first time in my life.

 

[DaveC426913]

Night terrors are really more about waking up from the terror, rather than the terror occurring upon awakening. And victims tend to have no idea or memory of what caused them.

 

[Count Iblis]

Ghosts exist in the virtual worlds simulated by some brains.

 

[NWH]

I can honestly say, I've had visual experiences which I have no solid explination for. These experiences were also confirmed by the people around me at the time. The conditions were dark, misty and moon lit, out in the wilderness that is Kielder Reservoir. Mist and fog can be known to make shapes, but I've usually found it to pretty evenly distributed from what I've ever noticed. Seeing bodilly figures litterally all around you, some even having what resemble limbs isn't a happy sight, not when your visuals' position are confirmed by someone elses torch light, nor when you're standing litterally thirty feet from a grave yard. I can confidently say what I saw was a form of "ghost," whether it was an interdimentional being or an effect of nature is yet to be answered.

 

[Quincy]

Ghosts = Bulls*it. End of Discussion :)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ghosts = Bulls*it. End of Discussion :)

On what do you base your opinion?

 

[DaveC426913]

On what do you base your opinion?

As stated, that was not an opinion; that was a claim of fact. Quincy apparently has access to data that the rest of us do not.

 

[Pinu7]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

What if money were at stake? Yours. And lots of it. Which way would you bet?

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

Well, if we do not have an explanation then we cannot rule out their claims. They're only crazy if they're wrong.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't "believe" that ghosts a real or fake.

However, I find it interesting that if this phenomena is experienced by so much, that there would be scientific investigations instead of crazies with "echno-plasma-thermo-ghosto meters."

What kind of scientific investigation would you suggest? What specific tests could be done?

Also, are you claiming that no credible scientists look at this stuff?

 

[Evo]

Unfortunately, thanks to reality tv, there are tv shows featuring people that are just playing along for tv ratings and are just ridiculous, take Travel Channel's "Ghost Adventures" as an example. Absolute nonsense. Unfortunately, the popularity of such ridiculous shows and the huge fad where anyone that buys some cheap electronics can claim they are "ghost hunters" has turned most intelligent people away from even considering the possibility that there might be some real phenomenon.

 

[waht]

The only phenomena that is real is the delusions and hallucinations people experience daily.

People are highly tuned to external stimuli that supports their preconceptions, and reject what doesn't. People hear voices in radio static, recognize faces in clouds, sometimes feel somebody is touching them when there is no one. People respond to external stimuli differently alone than in groups. People remember some things that never happened, or can have skewed versions of things that happened. People are highly influenced by other people. The environment influences our mental states, from the shape of the room, color of the walls, even height of the ceiling has been shown to influence people. The list goes on and on. That's just from psych101.The hypothesis that ghosts exist is the same as hypothesis that there is a tea cup in orbit between Mars and Jupiter. In fact, you can make millions of hypotheses about anything and not able to prove them. Does it mean that a tea cup in orbit doesn't exist? I can't say it doesn't for sure, after all I'll be stating a fact without proof. These kinds of exercises are pointless, and don't lead to anything constructive.

 

[DaveC426913]

The hypothesis that ghosts exist is the same as hypothesis that there is a tea cup in orbit between Mars and Jupiter.

Well, it would be iff hundreds of thousands of people throughout history and the modern world had independent experiences of and documented accounts of witnessing it, yes.

(I'm the Devils Advocate here. I think ghosts are not real too. But I think your teacup argument is too weak to stand.)

 

[Evo]

Let's see, I'm an atheist, do not believe in a soul, do not believe in an afterlife or reincarnation. I don't believe in ghosts, not that they are the dead walking the earth.

I did experience an unexplained phenomenom. Saw it, felt it, interacted with it. Middle of the day, bright daylight, no drugs, no alcohol, I was doing laundry and certainly not thinking of anything out of the ordinary.

Stuff happens.

 

[waht]

Well, it would be iff hundreds of thousands of people throughout history and the modern world had independent experiences of and documented accounts of witnessing it, yes.

If the ghost accounts are attributed to psychological glitches then it would further support the fact that reports of ghosts should date back to early recorded history, since the human physiology hasn't evolved much in the past thousands of years.

(I'm the Devils Advocate here. I think ghosts are not real too. But I think your teacup argument is too weak to stand.)

Thanks for the feedback. It helps receive criticism so that I could learn to make a better argument in the future.

 

[DaveC426913]

If the ghost accounts are attributed to psychological glitches then it would further support the fact that reports of ghosts should date back to early recorded history, since the human physiology hasn't evolved much over the past thousands of years.

That fact does not provide differentiation; it will neither confirm nor refute either theory.

So we have reports going back millenia. Still could be psychological, still could be supernatural.

 

[Quincy]

On what do you base your opinion?

In all the years leading up to the present, during which people have been debating whether ghosts exist or not, there has never been any conclusive evidence of the existence of ghosts.

 

[Quincy]

This doesn't mean that I don't believe there isn't something out there we don't understand because, like Ivan, I had something happen that I cannot explain. I was 42 years old when it happened. Ok, I was taking a basket of laundry into my daughter's bedroom, when a white kitten I owned tried to run in through the door with me. My daughter was allergic to cats and would not let them in her room, so when the kitten started to run in, I stuck my foot out to block it. It dodged my foot a few times then hit my ankle as it darted into the room past me and ran straight under her bed. I pushed the door behind me closed with my foot. Dropped the basket of laundry down and went to the bed and got down on my hands and knees so I could grab the kitten.

No kitten.

I searched the entire room, including the closet.

No kitten.

I searched the entire house.

No kitten.

I looked outside, there it was.

Then I remembered the other white kitten that had died 3 months earlier.

I was doing laundry on a bright, sunny day. Not thinking of anything except putting away my daughter's clothes at that moment.

This can be explained easily. As you were ducking down to look under the bed, the kitten quickly ran out from under the bed, ran outside the room, and went outside.

 

[ideasrule]

I'm curious about these ghost stories. Ivan: how did you feel that somebody was sitting on the bed? Did you feel that the bed sheets were caving in towards the center of your legs? If so, did you see a depression between your legs? Did you try waving your hands above the bed to see if you could feel anything? Did you stick your hand between your legs to see if you could feel any pressure? After all, if the ghost (or whatever it was) can exert pressure on the bed, it should exert pressure on your hand too.

I'm guessing that you didn't do any of these experiments, which I'm not blaming you for--I would have been too frightened to do them too. It would have been interesting if you did, though: it's useful information for future investigations.

Evo: where did you eventually find your kitten? Are you sure all the doors were closed in your house? Did you check all of them, or did you think they were closed because you don't remember opening them? If they were all closed, why was the kitten outside?

 

[waht]

That fact does not provide differentiation; it will neither confirm nor refute either theory.

So we have reports going back millenia. Still could be psychological, still could be supernatural.

The ghost hypothesis should have never been so hyped up. It lingers just like all the other conspiracy theories, postulating an outrageous premise, and then gains more credibility in the fact that it can't be proved.

To resolve this issue is to not make up absurd hypotheses in the first place, it may have you chase your own tail ad infinitum.

 

[Evo]

This can be explained easily. As you were ducking down to look under the bed, the kitten quickly ran out from under the bed, ran outside the room, and went outside.

You missed where I said I pushed the door closed behind me. So, it could not have run out.

Not to mention, if I hadn't closed the bedroom door, it would have been equally remarkable for the kitten to teleport itself outside of a closed house.

Evo: where did you eventually find your kitten? Are you sure all the doors were closed in your house? Did you check all of them, or did you think they were closed because you don't remember opening them? If they were all closed, why was the kitten outside?

The "real" cat had been outside the entire time, there was no cat in the house. My house has central air conditioning, so all doors and windows are always kept closed and locked. Even if the windows had been opened, they were all covered with screens.

 

[Quincy]

You missed where I said I pushed the door closed behind me. So, it could not have run out.

Not to mention, if I hadn't closed the bedroom door, it would have been equally remarkable for the kitten to teleport itself outside of a closed house.

Ah I overlooked that detail... Nevertheless, I'm sure there was some other way the cat got outside; last time I checked, cats don't teleport.

 

[Evo]

Ah I overlooked that detail... Nevertheless, I'm sure there was some other way the cat got outside; last time I checked, cats don't teleport.

I would have been inside the room with it if it had been a cat. I have no idea what I experienced. I was so flabberghasted that I called my daughter to tell her what happened. Sure, I could have imagined it all, which of course, is the easiest way to explain it. I have no idea what happened, all I am sure of is that there was nothing there. No creature was stirring, not even a mouse.

All I'm saying is after this experience, when someone says they have had an experience they can't explain, I now know what they mean. Of course my boyfriend doesn't believe it's anything more than something created in the brain, but he has assured me that he won't have me committed, not yet...

I also wouldn't be so quick to claim that cats can't teleport. It's my experience that a cat can do anything it damn well pleases.

 

[waht]

I would have been inside the room with it if it had been a cat. I have no idea what I experienced. I was so flabberghasted that I called my daughter to tell her what happened. Sure, I could have imagined it all, which of course, is the easiest way to explain it. I have no idea what happened, all I am sure of is that there was nothing there. No creature was stirring, not even a mouse.

You could be remembering a version of the event clearly and one which does not make sense logically because you didn't remember other crucial details. In the brief time it happened, your imagination filled the rest. List of memory biases among many

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memory_biaseshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_effect

The misinformation effect is a memory bias that occurs when misinformation affects people's reports of their own memory.

In the oft-cited reconstruction of automobile destruction study led by Elizabeth Loftus, people watched footage of a car accident. Later some were asked to estimate the speed at which the car was going when it hit the other car. Others were asked how fast they thought the car was going when it smashed into the other. Those who were asked the question with the smashed wording were much more likely to "remember" seeing broken glass in a later question (in reality, no glass had been broken in the accident). They also remembered the car as driving much faster.

 

[Evo]

You could be remembering a version of the event clearly and one which does not make sense logically because you didn't remember other crucial details. In the brief time it happened, your imagination filled the rest.

No, I not only discussed it with my daughter, I wrote it down because it was so unsettling. Since I wrote it down when it happened, there is nothing to do with false memories.