Why in nature there is no spinless fermion?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of spinless fermions in nature, exploring the relationship between spin and statistics in quantum mechanics. Participants delve into theoretical aspects, particularly in the context of quantum field theory and low-energy regimes.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that there are spinless fermions, such as Faddeev-Popov Ghosts in quantized non-Abelian Gauge theories, but question their status as "real" particles due to their lack of positive definite norm.
  • One participant suggests that the definition of a "real" particle influences the classification of spinless fermions.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of imposing fermionic commutation relations on spinless or spin integer particles, with some arguing that there is no contradiction in certain contexts.
  • Another participant mentions that in non-interacting problems, the spin degree of freedom can be irrelevant, allowing for the treatment of spinless fermions without contradiction.
  • Discussion includes the idea that in interacting systems, the dynamics become more complex due to interactions between different spin species.
  • Some participants reference the use of Grassmann numbers in point-particle quantum mechanics and the necessity of field theory for observing commutation relations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the classification and implications of spinless fermions, with no consensus reached on whether they can be considered "real" particles or the validity of imposing fermionic relations on them.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of "real" particles, the complexity of interactions in different systems, and the potential irrelevance of spin in specific theoretical frameworks.

wdlang
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why?

i can see the link between spin value and the statistics in quantum mechanics
 
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wdlang said:
why?

i can see the link between spin value and the statistics in quantum mechanics

Well, actually there are spinless fermions of sorts. It just depends on what you define to be a "real" particle is. I am of course talking about Faddeev-Popov Ghosts in quantized non-Abelian Gauge theories. These particles are spinless fermions (in other words spin = 0, but they anti-commute.) However they do not possesses positive definite norm, which makes them less "real" if you like. More to the point, however, they depend on the choice of gauge. Interestingly, infinite renormalization constants depend on these spinless fermions, but finite gauge invariant quantities do not: they simply cancel out. This amazing fact is far from obvious by any argument that I have heard of. It takes a lot of hard formalism to prove it. So you decide for yourself if Faddeev-Popov Ghosts are real spinless fermions. Most physicists will not elevate them to the status of being "real" particles however.
 
fermi said:
Well, actually there are spinless fermions of sorts. It just depends on what you define to be a "real" particle is. I am of course talking about Faddeev-Popov Ghosts in quantized non-Abelian Gauge theories. These particles are spinless fermions (in other words spin = 0, but they anti-commute.) However they do not possesses positive definite norm, which makes them less "real" if you like. More to the point, however, they depend on the choice of gauge. Interestingly, infinite renormalization constants depend on these spinless fermions, but finite gauge invariant quantities do not: they simply cancel out. This amazing fact is far from obvious by any argument that I have heard of. It takes a lot of hard formalism to prove it. So you decide for yourself if Faddeev-Popov Ghosts are real spinless fermions. Most physicists will not elevate them to the status of being "real" particles however.

i am not familiar with quantum field theory

i work in the low energy regime

the problem i am concerned with is, possibly there is no contradiction if we take a spinless or spin integer particle and impose fermionic commutation relations on it
 
Which kind of expression do you have in mind?

If you do point-particle quantum mechanics then you should study something like Grassmann numbers (like in supersymmetric QM).

But in many cases there are not even commutation relations b/c the particles are not the canonical variables.Think about the non-rel. Pauli equation: I think you can plug in any spin you like. The fundamental variables are still x and p, so no anticommutation at all.

I think w/o using some sort of field theory you will never observe something like commutation or anticommutation relations between particles.
 
wdlang said:
the problem i am concerned with is, possibly there is no contradiction if we take a spinless or spin integer particle and impose fermionic commutation relations on it
If you are worried about the standard phrase "let us study spinless fermions" that you can find in many books on QM and condensed matter, then my answer would be no, there is no contradiction in imposing anticommutation relations on spinless fermions. Very often in non-interacting problems the spin degree of freedom is irrelevant, so you can forget it altogether and then, in the end, multiply your end result by a factor of two. In this case you just have too identical "flavors" of fermions that do not talk to each other. For example, most textbook solutions for the famous Tomonaga-Luttinger model (fermions in one spatial dimension) are done for spinless fermions, since then bosonization leads to a simple solution in terms of charge waves.

Things are of course very different for interacting systems, since the two spin species interact via Coulomb interaction. In the Tomonaga-Luttinger model, this leads to spin density waves that make matters a little bit more complicated.
EDIT: small clarification
 
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