Why Is +c Not Required in Definite Integration?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of definite integration in calculus, specifically addressing why a constant of integration (+c) is not included in the evaluation of definite integrals. Participants explore the implications of this omission and the underlying mathematical principles.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that in definite integration, the constant of integration (+c) is unnecessary because it cancels out when evaluating the integral at the bounds.
  • One participant explains that the definite integral is computed by taking the difference of the antiderivative evaluated at the upper and lower limits, which results in the cancellation of +c.
  • Another participant discusses the nature of derivatives and how they are not injective, leading to the conclusion that the inverse operation of derivation is not well-defined, which contributes to the confusion around the constant of integration.
  • A participant expresses frustration with the convention of including +c in calculus, suggesting it complicates understanding.
  • Some participants mention the need for a deeper understanding of mathematical theory to fully grasp why +c is omitted in definite integrals.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between the derivative, antiderivative, and definite integral, with emphasis on the complexities of notation and the implications of treating these operations as functions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the constant of integration is not needed in definite integrals due to its cancellation, but there is disagreement on the deeper theoretical implications and the clarity of the notation used in calculus.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion touches on advanced concepts such as injective operators and the nature of functions, which may not be fully resolved within the context of the conversation.

madmike159
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When you do limited integration you don't need to put +c on the end. My maths teacher showed me a proof for this once but I can't rember it. Can anyone show me the proof?
 
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madmike159 said:
When you do limited integration you don't need to put +c on the end. My maths teacher showed me a proof for this once but I can't rember it. Can anyone show me the proof?

The way i like to think of it is like this:

[tex] \int_a^b {f(x)\;dx} [/tex]
is evaluated by evaluating the indefinite integral of f(x) at b and then subtracting the indefinite integral evaluated at a.

If i let the indefinite integral of f(x) be F(x)+c where c is the constant of integration, then:

[tex] \int_a^b {f(x)\;dx} = [F(b) + c] - [F(a) + c] = F(b) - F(a)[/tex]

Note how the constant cancels out?
 
madmike159 said:
When you do limited integration you don't need to put +c on the end. My maths teacher showed me a proof for this once but I can't rember it. Can anyone show me the proof?

In all of mathematics, nothing annoys me more than the +c convention in calculus ;-)

Let's start by looking at where the hell +c comes from.

Take a derivative of a few functions.

f(x) = x^2, f'(x) = 2x
f(x) = x^2 + 1, f'(x) = 2x
f(x) = x^2 + 2, f'(x) = 2x
f(x) = x^2 + 3, f'(x) = 2x
...
f(x) = x^2 + n, f'(x) = 2x, for any real number n

You can see that for all of these functions, the derivative is the same. In other words, the derivative operation is mapping different inputs to the same output. You are *losing* information about the input function, f, and if you're only given f', then you have no idea what value n was in the original equation.

In mathematics, there is an idea of an injective operator. An injective operator is any operator which preserves all information on the input, and thus, it can be undone. To "undo" an injective operator, we apply another operator, called that operator's inverse. Operators which are *not* injective have *no* inverses.

The derivative operation is *not* injective. It maps different functions to the same output. You are losing information about the input. And so, there is no way to undo it, and no inverse operation. If you know f'(x) = 2x, then f(x) could be any of f(x) = x^2, f(x) = x^2 + 1, f(x) = x^2 + 2, ... In other words, the inverse of derivation is a multi-valued operator. It has no single value, but rather, you can think of it as being the set of possible values whose derivative is 2x.

Math teachers and practical scientists don't want to deal with functions and set theory and inverse operations. Actually, most of the mathematical language to describe this was invented later, so calculus textbooks still teach calculus similar to how Newton and Leibniz did things. Since you can get the right answer without using a strictly mathematically sound technique, this abuse of notation persists.

Since the poster above me gave the short answer, the long answer is that it is an abuse of notation caused by the fact that the derivative has no inverse operator. But treating it as if it were an arbitrary constant gets you the correct answer.
 
Your post hasn't explained why in the context of the definite integral there isn't any +c, unlike danago's. But of course there is some even deeper maths theory I have yet to learn as to how the definite integral came about.
 
Why only real n Tac Tics?
 
Defennder said:
Your post hasn't explained why in the context of the definite integral there isn't any +c, unlike danago's. But of course there is some even deeper maths theory I have yet to learn as to how the definite integral came about.

I didn't explain it because danago did =-)

So we're working with four things. The derivative, the anti-derivative, the definite integral, and the definite integral. Let's work out the definitions for the rest in terms of the derivative.

It's true that the derivative throws away some information about your function. But it doesn't throw it all away! It actually keeps *most* of the information about your function except for the value of f(0). If you know the value for f(0) and f'(x), you can figure out your function. (Assuming of course, your function is "well-behaved"... it probably needs to be analytic or something is my guess).

The anti-derivative is another operation on functions. It doesn't have a standard notation, so let's call it A(f) for the anti-derivative of f. It is the unique operation which satisfies the property:

[tex]\frac{d}{dx} A(f) \vert^{x} = A(\frac{df}{dx}) \vert^x= f(x) - f(0)[/tex]

The nice thing about the anti-derivative is that it is the inverse of derivation when you only consider functions where f(0) = 0. It's also an operation, meaning applying it to any function f gives you a single value. No +c's or anything going on here!

However, the anti-derivative operator A is NOT the inverse of derivation in general. As I said in my last post, no such operation exists, because derivation is non-injective. There is no inverse operation for derivation.

But set and function theory in mathematics says that even though not every operation has an inverse operation. Given a function f, the best you can do is generate the set of functions whose derivative is f: {F | dF/dx = f}. Let's call this set If (I for "Integral"... and the sub f, because it's dependent on a choice of f). The set If contains the anti-derivative of f, A(f), and all other functions of the form F(x) = A(f) + c, for any real number c. So we can write If as {F | F(x) = A(f) + c, for any real n}.

What math and physics teachers like to do is pretend is to ignore the squiggly brackets { and } denoting it as a set and treat it like a single value! They use the notation F for A(f), and then claim the indefinite integral of f is F(x) + c. But the indefinite integral is really the set of possible values! An infinite set too!

But the teachers and physicists don't care, because of a nice trick. The definite integral from b to a is obtained by taking any function in If, calling it F, and then evaluating F(a) - F(b). Since you only take a function out of the set once, you get to "fix" c to a constant. So if F(x) = (A(f))(x) + c, then

[tex]F(a) - F(b) = (A(f))(a) + c - (A(f))(b) + c)<br /> = (A(f))(a) - (A(f))(b)[/tex]

(Note that A(f) is a function, so by (A(f))(x), I mean taking the antiderivative of f, and then inputting a value of x to it).

Taking the difference of F(a) and F(b) causes the c to cancel itself.

So, as you can tell by this post, the reason for the +c is because the actual formulation is a little complicated! I blame it on the notation, because things like (A(f))(x) seem very unnatural to most people after they finite algebra and trigonometry. But once you get used to it, the ideas behind calculus aren't terribly hard. The derivative and anti-derivative "operations" (as I've been calling them) can actually be treated in mathematics as regular functions! Not functions from reals to reals, of course, but functions from functions to functions.

In mathematics and computer science, we have a nice little notation for function types. If we let R be the set of reals, set can talk about the set R->R, or real valued functions, which take a real number as input and output another real number. What the derivative and anti-derivative operators are, are actually elements of the set (R->R)->(R->R). You give them a real function, (f) and you get back another (df/dx).

But you don't really have to care about the details. As long as you can (A) get the right answer and (B) acknowledge there are more details you haven't considered, then it doesn't really matter, does it? =-)

Why only real n Tac Tics?
You're right, I should have accounted for hyperreal, surreal, dual, and quaternion n as well =-P
 
Tac-Tics said:
I didn't explain it because danago did =-)

So we're working with four things. The derivative, the anti-derivative, the definite integral, and the definite integral.

you forgot the definite integral methinks
 
NoMoreExams said:
you forgot the definite integral methinks

Tac-Tics said:
The definite integral from b to a is obtained by taking any function in If, calling it F, and then evaluating F(a) - F(b).

The one thing I kinda skimped over was the indefinite integral. Some people take the indefinite integral to mean the anti-derivative. Most other people take it to mean the anti-derivative "+c". I like to think of the indefinite integral as a multi-valued function (or a relation). An operation which produces the set If. But that's just a personal way of thinking about it to remind me that those details need to be accounted for.
 
I was just being sarcastic and pointing out that you wrote "definite integral" twice :)
 
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