Why is ET such a magnet for loonatics?

[jreelawg]

This post and my earlier post (46) is not for the purpose of discussing the existence God; it is to discuss further my idea that ..

if you believe in, or at least allow the possibility of ET, then you must also necessarily, allow the possibility of the existence of a God.

DaveC, I feel you are looking at it with a degree of anthropic bias. This fundamental difference that you posit between God and 'god like' .. the question is, if one or the other were the case, how indeed would you know ? It would be so far beyond your ken as to not be able to make such a distinction.

The universe is a large place - you could probably imagine better than I, how large. Indeed, it could well be infinite (many scientists believe it IS infinite). If there is room in it for ET, then I still think it is only logical to say there is equal room for an ET of God, or at least, god like proportions. The difference between God and god like would be moot.

And if any sort of god is possible, then literally anything is possible, because a god may be able to defy all of man kinds established laws.

So transitively, if you accept the possibility of extraterrestrial life existing, then you must accept the possibility of the moon being made of cheese as well.

And because the criteria that you've established for being forced to accept the existence of god, is that you accept the existence of something you do not know. Then if I accept the possibility that my car will start next morning, then I must also accept the possibility that the moon is made of cheese.

 

[DaveC426913]

It would be so far beyond your ken as to not be able to make such a distinction.

The universe is a large place - you could probably imagine better than I, how large. Indeed, it could well be infinite

It may or may not be infinite in extent, but it is not infinite in time. Every one of those 10^23 stars has been around less than 13 billion years. A very large fraction of them (all the pop II and pop I's) have been around much less than that (And pop III's are hypothesized to be nearly extinct).

It took more than 1/3 of the age of the universe just to get to our level of sophistication. And there's no reason to believe that evolution happens at outrageously faster rates elsewhere, even with a sampling of 10^23.

So there are definitely some rate-limiting factors on how god-like any alien can get.

 

[jreelawg]

It may or may not be infinite in extent, but it is not infinite in time. Every one of those 10^23 stars has been around less than 13 billion years. A very large fraction of them (all the pop II and pop I's) have been around much less than that (And pop III's are hypothesized to be nearly extinct).

It took more than 1/3 of the age of the universe just to get to our level of sophistication. And there's no reason to believe that evolution happens at outrageously faster rates elsewhere, even with a sampling of 10^23.

So there are definitely some rate-limiting factors on how god-like any alien can get.

What does it even mean to be god like. Are you counting technology? If you count technology, then it could be the case that evolution toward god likeness could accelerate once certain breakthroughs take place.

The point we are at now is an example. Will technology soon make forms of immortality possible? It already allows us to fly, clone creatures, harness electricity, travel to the moon etc. Certainly, ancient man might have considered this god like.

How about the possibility that genetic engineering, nano technology, etc, make it possible for us to artificially evolve ourselves?

But I don't think we will ever be able to make ecosystems out of clay in seven days.

 

[DubaUe]

wouldn't there be a lot of compounds of the same as humans if there were? aliens are just living things. If so they exist.

 

[DaveC426913]

What does it even mean to be god like. Are you counting technology? If you count technology, then it could be the case that evolution toward god likeness could accelerate once certain breakthroughs take place.

The point we are at now is an example. Will technology soon make forms of immortality possible? It already allows us to fly, clone creatures, harness electricity, travel to the moon etc. Certainly, ancient man might have considered this god like.

How about the possibility that genetic engineering, nano technology, etc, make it possible for us to artificially evolve ourselves?

But I don't think we will ever be able to make ecosystems out of clay in seven days.

Again: God is qualitatively different from god-like.

Advanced as they are, with 10^23 possible chances at godliness, none of them brought the universe into existence with a flick of their mind.

 

[alt]

In my opinion: I agree with DaveC426913 that the probability that life is 100% unique to this one planet in the entire universe is totally bonkers.

However, when I consider the Fermi Paradox, it seems like that is an explanation to me that says: "Either there is a neigh insurmountable hurdle related to interstellar or intergalactic travel; or nobody wants to talk to us."

But, frankly, I think that I do not have enough data to be comfortable talking about this sort of thing. And I don't mean I haven't been doing readings, I mean that we haven't even gotten to the point where we can see for ourselves if it's even possible to travel from star to star. What if there's some sort of crazy obstacle out there that we just plain can't see?


alt: when you say "an ET of God" do you mean life that got to that point? Or are you saying God? Because the God of Christianity is definitely something that was not originally life.

No, I am certainly not talking about the God of Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - or any other religion for that matter.

Nor am I saying a ET of God. I am simply saying that in an infinite universe (I believe it's infinite) if you allow the possibility of ET and also overcome anthropic bias, then you have to also allow the possibility of such an ET existing, that might be so vastly different to us, in scale, phase, intelligence, etc, as to be considered God, or at least 'god like' by our standards.

 

[alt]

It may or may not be infinite in extent, but it is not infinite in time. Every one of those 10^23 stars has been around less than 13 billion years. A very large fraction of them (all the pop II and pop I's) have been around much less than that (And pop III's are hypothesized to be nearly extinct).

It took more than 1/3 of the age of the universe just to get to our level of sophistication. And there's no reason to believe that evolution happens at outrageously faster rates elsewhere, even with a sampling of 10^23.

So there are definitely some rate-limiting factors on how god-like any alien can get.

Yet it's taken us barely 150 years to get from the horse & carriage, to the International Space Station. Who knows where we might be in another few hundred years.

Assume a race of ET's developed similar to us, but were, say, 100,000 years ahead (still, not even a blink in the eye of Buddha) - quite possible according to your above numbers. Also assume that they had managed not to blow themselves up, and had continued a steady (if not exponential) rate of technological progress. Where would you say they'd be in the scale of 'godliness' according to our perceptions ?

I must continue to state here, that I don't believe this to be the case - I don't believe in ET at all, and am at most, ambivalent about the big G question. I am merely following your logic, and still believe if one is possible, so is the other.

 

[alt]

And if any sort of god is possible, then literally anything is possible, because a god may be able to defy all of man kinds established laws.

So transitively, if you accept the possibility of extraterrestrial life existing, then you must accept the possibility of the moon being made of cheese as well.

And because the criteria that you've established for being forced to accept the existence of god, is that you accept the existence of something you do not know. Then if I accept the possibility that my car will start next morning, then I must also accept the possibility that the moon is made of cheese.

I am not saying anything is possible, nor am I forcing you to believe in anything. I am simply saying that if you allow for the possibility ...

(please see above posts)

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, I think it is safe to say that, considering the breadth of the universe, and accepting the possibility of ET, one must allow for the possibility of god-like creatures.

But note:

It is also safe to say that, considering the breadth of the universe, and not believing in ET, one must still allow for the possibility of god-like creatures.

i.e. Alt, you must allow for the possibility too, despite your beliefs to the contrary. Because, frankly your argument that there are no ETs (and therefore no possibility that any might be god-like) is indefensible. It's the diff between what you think is probably true, and what you must still allow the possibility for.

 

[nucl34rgg]

It would be wrong to claim with certainty that there is no life elsewhere in the universe considering how vast the universe is. There is a good possibility that life exists elsewhere, but it likely is very different from anything we have here on earth. It is entirely feasible that there exist advanced intelligent lifeforms out there, but they would still be constrained by the same physical laws that apply to us. People often forget this crucial limitation. Technological advancement can only get you so far so to speak...

 

[DaveC426913]

It would be wrong to claim with certainty that there is no life elsewhere in the universe considering how vast the universe is. There is a good possibility that life exists elsewhere, but it likely is very different from anything we have here on earth. It is entirely feasible that there exist advanced intelligent lifeforms out there, but they would still be constrained by the same physical laws that apply to us. People often forget this crucial limitation. Technological advancement can only get you so far so to speak...

Agreed on all points.

 

[alt]

It would be wrong to claim with certainty that there is no life elsewhere in the universe considering how vast the universe is. There is a good possibility that life exists elsewhere, but it likely is very different from anything we have here on earth. It is entirely feasible that there exist advanced intelligent lifeforms out there, but they would still be constrained by the same physical laws that apply to us. People often forget this crucial limitation. Technological advancement can only get you so far so to speak...

And how far is that ?

(DaveC, thank you for your as always, enlightening and considered reply, #59. Hope to post a brief response soon)

 

[alt]

Yes, I think it is safe to say that, considering the breadth of the universe, and accepting the possibility of ET, one must allow for the possibility of god-like creatures.

Yes.

But note:

It is also safe to say that, considering the breadth of the universe, and not believing in ET, one must still allow for the possibility of god-like creatures.

That's an interesting point - fascinating in fact. You know forum rules better than I do - if you think it wouldn't violate rules, please elucidate.

i.e. Alt, you must allow for the possibility too, despite your beliefs to the contrary. Because, frankly your argument that there are no ETs (and therefore no possibility that any might be god-like) is indefensible.

I agree it is probably an indefensible argument, but it's not the argument I was making. I don't think I ever went to the negative, and said there is no God / god like creatures. I do have some views .. or rather, suppositions concerning God, but it is clear that this thread, indeed, pf, is not the place to discuss these.

It's the diff between what you think is probably true, and what you must still allow the possibility for.

Yes - it can get murky. Thanks for clarifying it a little.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Technological advancement can only get you so far so to speak...

Yes, but how far, exactly?

 

[nucl34rgg]

Yes, but how far, exactly?

That's a good question! :D

 

[lostprophets]

What does it even mean to be god like. Are you counting technology? If you count technology, then it could be the case that evolution toward god likeness could accelerate once certain breakthroughs take place.

The point we are at now is an example. Will technology soon make forms of immortality possible? It already allows us to fly, clone creatures, harness electricity, travel to the moon etc. Certainly, ancient man might have considered this god like.

How about the possibility that genetic engineering, nano technology, etc, make it possible for us to artificially evolve ourselves?

But I don't think we will ever be able to make ecosystems out of clay in seven days.

god like to me means everything.technology and life,life and technology. to create everything "like" but not the same

to the op..there are loons everywhere into everything