I think the Republicans should let him have it: the political impact on the middle and right will be even larger. It would be childs-play for the right to hammer Obama for focusing on politicking for this.mheslep said:The tax hike proposal on the table from Obama - raising the rate ~5% on those over $200/250K will raise $100B (at most) against a $1600B deficit. 16-1 =/ 0, i.e. those taxes increases will do ~zip for the deficit, though I'll grant its political impact on the left is large.
mheslep said:New York and Maryland have both tried millionaire taxes with little revenue increase in NY and actual loss in Md as the high dollar folks simply walked.
Editorial for now:Jack21222 said:I'm going to ask for proof of this.
The number of millionaires DID decrease in Maryland after the tax was passed, but I've seen no evidence that it was due to them leaving the state, and not due to the economy tanking around the same time the law was passed.
mheslep said:Editorial for now:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html
More later, unless you want a written affidavit from every Md tax filer >$1M that didn't file after the tax increase as to why they didn't file in Md.
All of this means that the burden of paying for bloated government in Annapolis will fall on the middle class. Thanks to the futility of soaking the rich, these working families will now pay Mr. O'Malley's "fair share."
mheslep said:Editorial for now:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124329282377252471.html
More later, unless you want a written affidavit from every Md tax filer >$1M that didn't file after the tax increase as to why they didn't file in Md.
No doubt the majority of that loss in millionaire filings results from the recession.
turbo-1 said:Unfortunately, we have members who have not passed the pons asinorum, so we have the same pointless arguments over and over. It is pointless, but apparently fun to some.
The point is some left. I doubt you thought I was stating that the income loss was because all millionaires left Md. Consider: how many millionaires have to pay the ~10% or whatever increase to existing Md income taxes to make up for those that are now paying none because they left the state altogether, taking some property taxes and likely some jobs with them?Jack21222 said:Read your own link:
They still filed in Maryland, but due to the recession, they weren't millionaires anymore.
If you've ever wondered why so many Greeks succeed in shipping, John Coustas has a plausible theory: "Greek shipping has nothing to do with the Greek state."
His firm, Danaos Corporation, is a case in point. Mr. Coustas took over the company, which owns container ships, from his father in 1987 and has since transformed it from a three-vessel outfit into the third-largest company of its kind in the world, with a fleet of 56 ships. Danaos is incorporated in the Marshall Islands, a popular and stable jurisdiction for the global industry, and handles many of its operations through its German, Ukrainian, Russian and Tanzanian offices.
...
the biggest risk to Greece, he says, is brain drain, that "all the good people, who really have something to offer, are either leaving or seriously considering it."
...
Mr. Coustas says entrepreneurial activity [in Greece] was denigrated for many years and profit was regarded as "wrong." "Anyone who wanted to make an investment here was considered a kind of bloodsucker."
...
In the early 1980s, Mr. Coustas was in Japan to sign a new shipbuilding contract for Danaos. He recalls being approached by a Japanese workers' representative who "wanted to thank us for giving them work." The worker told him, "'We will do everything possible to build a good ship for you.' Can you imagine that happening here? Here, if you tried to do the same thing and place an order in the Greek shipyards, you would get protests that either you paid too little, or are trying to pressure the workers, or whatever."
mheslep said:The point is some left. I doubt you thought I was stating that the income loss was because all millionaires left Md. Consider: how many millionaires have to pay the ~10% or whatever increase to existing Md income taxes to make up for those that are now paying none because they left the state altogether, taking some property taxes and likely some jobs with them?
Note that http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/01/keith-richards-we-left-england" is feasible as well should taxes climb high enough.
Because Obama gets elected? Most of those people so far seem to be left leaningChar. Limit said:I always laugh at the people who say they'll leave the country if we raise taxes/Obama gets elected/they don't win. It's funny because they're always the same people who say that we have the "single greatest country that God has ever given man on the face of the Earth". Well, if it's so great, then why are you so eager to leave?
mheslep said:Because Obama gets elected? Most of those people so far seem to be left leaning
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/leave.asp
Char. Limit said:I always laugh at the people who say they'll leave the country if we raise taxes/Obama gets elected/they don't win. It's funny because they're always the same people who say that we have the "single greatest country that God has ever given man on the face of the Earth". Well, if it's so great, then why are you so eager to leave?
Sorry, might be unrelated. But still funny.
mheslep said:The point is some left. I doubt you thought I was stating that the income loss was because all millionaires left Md. Consider: how many millionaires have to pay the ~10% or whatever increase to existing Md income taxes to make up for those that are now paying none because they left the state altogether, taking some property taxes and likely some jobs with them?
Note that http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/01/keith-richards-we-left-england" is feasible as well should taxes climb high enough.
Jack21222 said:Look, you made the claim that some people left Maryland because of the tax situation. Moreover, you implied that there was a net loss in tax revenue, because so many left the state that it wiped out more than the extra taxes those who stayed payed.
You have provided no evidence of this. Can you at least find ONE millionaire who states that the primary reason they left Maryland was because of the tax hike? Not that that would prove your case, but so far, you haven't shown anything.
I'm not making any claims, I think it's quite possible that enough millionaires left Maryland to cancel out the tax hike, but it's up to you to support your argument.
mege said:There is an alternative to 'millionare's dissapearing' - they didn't make money.
I've posted a few articles on this in other threads, and for some reason I can't find it by quickly googling - but there was evidence that CA's big budget shortfalls were because the top 1% contributing 80% of the income tax revenues in the early 2000s in CA stopped making money in the late 2000s. The rich, while rich, can also afford to lose money for a year or two and not blink too hard. Since we tax on income, if they stop making money - that means less for the state. Since the start of this discussion, I wonder if that's more of the case in MD than actual millionare's leaving.
From my original response:Jack21222 said:Look, you made the claim that some people left Maryland because of the tax situation...
WSJ said:The Maryland state revenue office says it's "way too early" to tell how many millionaires moved out of the state when the tax rates rose. But no one disputes that some rich filers did leave...
Christopher Summers, president of the Maryland Public Policy Institute, notes: "Marylanders with high incomes typically own second homes in tax friendlier states like Florida, Delaware, South Carolina and Virginia. So it's easy for them to change their residency."
Jack21222 said:Moreover, you implied that there was a net loss in tax revenue, because so many left the state that it wiped out more than the extra taxes those who stayed payed.
You have provided no evidence of this.
This still doesn't provide a forensic accounting proof, but my original statement is a very reasonable conclusion given the the macro facts we do know, including the well established correlation between high earners and the shunning of high tax venues. If I feel inclined I'll attempt to dig up more information on the Md. case.WSJ said:Instead of the state coffers gaining the extra $106 million the politicians predicted, millionaires paid $100 million less in taxes than they did last year -- even at higher rates.
One-in-eight paying zero tax to Maryland. And as I posted before, the $257 million decline from state income taxes doesn't account for the lost property taxes, lost jobs provided by the millionaires, or the income that the millionaires may have shifted into less productive tax shelters shrinking their taxable income.WSJ said:... the state comptroller's office [of Md] now has the final tax return data for 2008, the first year that the higher tax rates applied. The number of millionaire tax returns fell sharply to 5,529 from 7,898 in 2007, a 30% tumble. The taxes paid by rich filers fell by 22%, and instead of their payments increasing by $106 million, they fell by some $257 million.
Yes, a big part of that decline results from the recession that eroded incomes, especially from capital gains. But there is also little doubt that some rich people moved out or filed their taxes in other states with lower burdens. One-in-eight millionaires who filed a Maryland tax return in 2007 filed no return in 2008. Some died, but the others presumably changed their state of residence...
Michael Caine said:"I will not pay the Government more than I get. No way, ever. So they've reached their limit with me. That's the lot."...
"That's what will happen to a lot of people," he said. "You know how much they [the government] made out of that high taxation all those years ago?
"Nothing and they sent a mass of incredible brains to America. Yes they did. The most stupid act you've ever seen in your life.
"We've got three and a half million layabouts laying about on benefits and I'm 76 getting up at six o'clock in the morning to go to work to keep them.
"Let's get everybody back to work so we can save a couple of billion and cut tax, not to keep sticking it on
"[URL Me Google That For You: businesses leave californiaThe Sunday Times UK said:Thanks to Alistair Darling’s 50% tax rate, announced in the budget, the co-founder of Hargreaves Lansdown, Britain’s biggest firm of financial advisers, is expected to cough up an extra £500,000 a year in income tax. “I won’t pay. I’ll leave,” said the 63-year-old entrepreneur, echoing the words of hundreds of businessmen.
“Why wouldn’t I? If I stay I’ll pay half a million more a year in tax. If I leave the country I can save £3m a year. It’s almost like the government is offering me a bribe worth £3m a year to go and live abroad.”
mheslep said:Somebody should get the Whitehouse a DVD pack of old West Wing episodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=716qbOv3a4M