News Why is the US/UK at war with Iraq?

[Smurf]

They were complete bastiches, yes. However, I will never approve of people cheering and celebrating deaths, nor of the parading of corpses on TV for PR value.

HA! You ARE against advirtising violence.

 

[Adam]

I'm against anything on Channel 7.

 

[Smurf]

Where I live channel 7 is ESPN.. please elaborate

 

[omin]

War is Over Energy

Energy is Power. Of course it's over energy. Oil is the life blood of the America infrastructure engine.

But, since Bush Administration didn't convince us of this, which would be real easy to do if we actually needed the oil, it's probably not the for good of Americans. It's probably for the good of a few who'll benefit while Iraqis are murdered for the energy.

 

[Adam]

Where I live channel 7 is ESPN.. please elaborate

It was just a silly joke.

 

[studentx]

The ratio of Iraqis actively helping the americans and Iraqis fighting them is close to 100:1. The ratio of Iraqis not fighting the Americans to Iraqis fighting the Americans is close to 10.000:1 . You can't defeat these numbers Adam.
Parts of Iraq are a mess, absolutely. But 90% of Iraq isnt. The parts of Iraq that are a mess have hundreds of thousands of Iraqis risking their lifes to help the Americans. There are different opinions of the US in these parts, and an overwhelming majority does NOT want the Americans to leave. You betray millions and gamble with the lifes of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis when argueing against the continuation of US presence in Iraq.
And i have suggested this before, try to discover the truth about what Iraqis want before you pretend to voice their opinion.

 

[Gokul43201]

Where I live channel 7 is ESPN.. please elaborate

Aussie TV has stations called Channel 9, Channel 10, Channel 31 and Channel 7 - don't know if there are others like that.

I'm guessing Ch 7 is owned by ol' Rupert (judging from Adam's pronouncement).



Oops...just noticed Adam already replied to this question, so ignore this.

 

[JohnDubYa]

They always did. Iraq under Saddam was a secular state, meaning the state itself was not governed by a religious group, or the state did not espouse anyone religion over others. However, they allowed people to worship in different ways. This is why the country has such a huge unmber of Shi'ites. If Saddam, who apparently killed people by the hundreds of thousands, wanted to oppress any form of worship, he would have killed them. This is one of the common misconceptions about Iraq under Saddam. He didn't give a damn about how people worshipped. They had all sorts. People had free education all the way through to university and post-grad studies. You just couldn't say anything bad about Saddam or the state, or they'd cane your feet.

Saddam's oppression of the Shi'ites and their religious activities is well known and documented. Just do a Google search using "Saddam oppressed Shiite" and you will find page after page (some more credible than others).

 

[JohnDubYa]

Adam, would you have celebrated the death of Hitler? Just curious.

 

[Smurf]

Adam, would you have celebrated the death of Hitler? Just curious.

Did you celebrate the bombs dropped on Japan?

The ratio of Iraqis actively helping the americans and Iraqis fighting them is close to 100:1. The ratio of Iraqis not fighting the Americans to Iraqis fighting the Americans is close to 10.000:1 . You can't defeat these numbers Adam.
Parts of Iraq are a mess, absolutely. But 90% of Iraq isnt. The parts of Iraq that are a mess have hundreds of thousands of Iraqis risking their lifes to help the Americans. There are different opinions of the US in these parts, and an overwhelming majority does NOT want the Americans to leave. You betray millions and gamble with the lifes of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis when argueing against the continuation of US presence in Iraq.
And i have suggested this before, try to discover the truth about what Iraqis want before you pretend to voice their opinion.

this just makes me sad

 

[Adam]

The ratio of Iraqis actively helping the americans and Iraqis fighting them is close to 100:1. The ratio of Iraqis not fighting the Americans to Iraqis fighting the Americans is close to 10.000:1 . You can't defeat these numbers Adam.

The ratio of red ants to black outside my kitchen door is 100:1. You can't defeat these numbers. But it's entirely irrelevent, isn't it? Think about it.

Parts of Iraq are a mess, absolutely. But 90% of Iraq isnt.

So what exactly are you basing these numbers on?

 

[Adam]

I'm guessing Ch 7 is owned by ol' Rupert (judging from Adam's pronouncement).

Everything here is owned either by Rupert Murdoch or Kerry Packer. Packer is mostly domestic though. He's also the one you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.

 

[Adam]

Saddam's oppression of the Shi'ites and their religious activities is well known and documented. Just do a Google search using "Saddam oppressed Shiite" and you will find page after page (some more credible than others).

1) Shi'a Muslims make up about 60-65% of Iraq's population.

2) Saddam was secular and fair; he oppressed them all equally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#Saddam_Hussein_as_a_secular_leader

 

[JohnDubYa]

Did you celebrate the bombs dropped on Japan?

No. But that was mainly because I was born in 1960.

 

[Adam]

Adam, would you have celebrated the death of Hitler? Just curious.

No. I celebrate no deaths.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Adam,

Shia Muslims were oppressed by Iraq's Baathist regime for more than 30 years and excluded from the highest ranks of power...


Under his rule, Shia opposition groups were fiercely oppressed and political and religious leaders murdered.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2931903.stm

The notion that he oppressed all groups equally is absurd. Given that the Shia were a majority in the country, they should have been well-represented in higher government. They were not.

And ask the Kurds if Saddam treated them like he did his own Sunni Muslims.

Here is another article from Iraq.net

Hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslims are in the Iraqi town of Karbala to mark the festival of Ashura for the first time in more than 30 years.
The festival was severely restricted by Saddam Hussein.

Ashura is the climax of a 10-day period of mourning for Shias commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain,
who was killed in Karbala in 680 AD.

His death is being marked by rhythmic chanting and ritual self-flagellation from devotees clad in black.

Over 2 million people are expected in Karbala in time for the festival's climax on Tuesday.

Many of the devotees this year have come illegally from neighbouring Iran, which, like Iraq, has a majority Shia population.

Years of suppression

Shias were repressed under Saddam Hussein's Sunni-dominated regime.

Observation of Ashura was hampered by a ban on the practice of ritually beating themselves and - among some Shia groups - of cutting wounds in their skin.


Pilgrims from Iran - a wartime enemy of Saddam Hussein's Iraq - were also not welcome at Karbala, one of Shia Islam's holiest sites.

The death of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet Mohammad, cemented the split between Sunni and Shia Islam over who should inherit lead the faith.

The BBC's Barbara Plett says the Ashura processions were tightly controlled not only by Saddam Hussein but by the Sunni rulers of Baghdad who preceded him - all saw them as dangerous rallying points for resistance.

Security fears

"We have been waiting for this ceremony for 30 years. I can't begin to describe my feelings. This is total freedom," said Saad al-Masoudi, a Karbala resident.

But other mourners in the procession felt things had changed for the worse.

"Today is not a good day," said Mohammed Hussein Fadel. "I would have preferred Saddam over the American conquerors... At least Saddam was a Muslim." [nice display of religious bigotry]

The focus of the celebrations is the gold-domed shrine of Imam Hussein in the centre of Karbala.

This year's event coincides with the growing dominance of Shias in post-Saddam Iraq - leading to fears that disgruntled Sunni militants may target the celebrations.

To prevent this, Karbala has been ringed by security forces - with Polish soldiers policing the town's entry points and Shia militias guarding its streets and shrines.

 

[Adam]

Leaders of all sorts of religious and other groups were killed or disappeared throughout Saddam's reign. Like I said, they were oppressed equally.

 

[JohnDubYa]

If you are saying that the Sunni were oppressed to the same extent as the Shia, then you are dead wrong.

 

[Adam]

There are more Shi'a than Sunni.

 

[studentx]

The ratio of red ants to black outside my kitchen door is 100:1. You can't defeat these numbers. But it's entirely irrelevent, isn't it? Think about it.

Im not following you here. How is it irrelevant that there are 100 times more Iraqis helping the americans than fighting them? Please answer this one Adam.

 

[Adam]

The question is not "How is it irrelevent?" but "How is it relevent?" What was your purpose in bringing it up (and it was you who brought it up)?

 

[JohnDubYa]

There are more Shi'a than Sunni.

Yeah, so what? You keep bringing this point up. Why is it relevant to this argument?

 

[Adam]

Good grief. If someone likes squashing fruits, and is equally violent toward all fruits, and there are twice as many oranges as lemons, then the number of orangse squashes will be double the number of lemons squashed.

 

[JohnDubYa]

That may be one of the dumbest posts you have presented so far.

 

[studentx]

The question is not "How is it irrelevent?" but "How is it relevent?" What was your purpose in bringing it up (and it was you who brought it up)?

The question is not "What was your purpose in bringing it up" but "What was your purpose in not bringing it up?".
Yes Adam, we can all evade questions.

 

[Adam]

That may be one of the dumbest posts you have presented so far.

It's called an analogy. One day you might understand such things. Maybe.

 

[Adam]

The question is not "What was your purpose in bringing it up" but "What was your purpose in not bringing it up?".
Yes Adam, we can all evade questions.

You're amazing. And I'm sure you don't even know why.

Watch closely:

Your post dated 7:21 AM yesterday, #277:

The ratio of Iraqis actively helping the americans and Iraqis fighting them is close to 100:1. The ratio of Iraqis not fighting the Americans to Iraqis fighting the Americans is close to 10.000:1 . You can't defeat these numbers Adam.

My post dated 3:10 PM yesterday, #282:

The ratio of red ants to black outside my kitchen door is 100:1. You can't defeat these numbers. But it's entirely irrelevent, isn't it? Think about it.

Your post dated 10:25 PM yesterday, #291:

Im not following you here. How is it irrelevant that there are 100 times more Iraqis helping the americans than fighting them? Please answer this one Adam.

My post dated 12:59 AM today, #292:

The question is not "How is it irrelevent?" but "How is it relevent?" What was your purpose in bringing it up (and it was you who brought it up)?

And finally, your post dated 3:42 AM today, #296:

The question is not "What was your purpose in bringing it up" but "What was your purpose in not bringing it up?".
Yes Adam, we can all evade questions.

Now, as is quite clear from this debacle, this thread of conversation begins with some utter piffle you posted (#277). You brought it up. You brought up irrelevant garbage. Again. And I asked you what the relevence was. You have yet to answer.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Well, it was a BAD analogy.

The idea that Saddam treated Shias and Kurds equally to Sunnis is laughable and unsupportable. Saddam's blatant suppression of the Sunnis and their religious ceremonies is well-documented. Besides, your analogy falls apart with his treatment of Kurds.

 

[russ_watters]

Wait, no, I get it - if there are twice as many oranges than lemons but you only have two fists, squashing the same percentage of oranges as lemons takes twice as much effort!

Ugh, I feel dumber for understanding Adam's line of reasoning.

 

[klusener]

this article is from the USA today on the opinions of iraqis on US presence in Iraq...

Poll: Iraqis out of patience
USA TODAY
BAGHDAD — Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Pol