News Why is the US/UK at war with Iraq?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lifegazer
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the justification for the war in Iraq, with participants expressing a range of views on the motivations and implications of military action. Key points include the belief that Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship warranted intervention, with some arguing that the U.S. had a moral imperative to act against tyranny. Critics highlight the lack of evidence for weapons of mass destruction and question the legitimacy of bypassing the United Nations, suggesting that the war is driven by imperialistic motives and oil interests. The conversation also touches on the potential for increased terrorism as a consequence of military action, with some asserting that removing Saddam could ultimately stabilize the region. The debate reflects deep divisions over the ethics of intervention, the effectiveness of diplomacy, and the consequences of military engagement in a complex geopolitical landscape.
  • #241
This means nothing, your opinions are that of a typical westerner who's morals have been twisted and shaped by the media to the government and corporates whim.

Let me guess, these corporations are all controlled by Jews, the entire Iraq War was a Zionist conspiracy, Saddam wasn't really so bad, yadda, yadda, yadda.

How close did I get, Smurf?

Frankly, I think it's hilarious that the US, according to Smurf, supported Saddam in his quest to rid his party of traitors. I guess the US trained the informant to rat out those that betrayed the Ba'ath Party. Or maybe the US trained Saddam's bodyguards to shoot political prisoners with revolvers.

Smurf, you should take your comedy act on the road.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #242
JohnDubYa said:
Your question is loaded. When you ask a reasonable question, I will answer.

I realize this shakes your foundation, but Saddam was more than a bad man. And yes, it was worth it for reasons you did not list.

Again, loaded question.

Of course the questions are loaded. With truth. Sometimes that can be painful and frustrating for those whose personal sense of order relies upon clinging to falsehoods. However, nothing in the questions was incorrect or misleading in any way. They are quite straightforward.
 
  • #243
JohnDubYa said:
I guess the US trained the informant to rat out those that betrayed the Ba'ath Party. Or maybe the US trained Saddam's bodyguards to shoot political prisoners with revolvers.

Why not? They trained Osama Bin Laden.
 
  • #244
Of course the questions are loaded. With truth. Sometimes that can be painful and frustrating for those whose personal sense of order relies upon clinging to falsehoods. However, nothing in the questions was incorrect or misleading in any way. They are quite straightforward.

Adam, I am going to ask you a loaded question... loaded with truth. I suppose this question will be painful and frustrating for you because of your personal sense of order relies on clinging to falsehoods.

Are you ready? Here goes...

Why are you stupid?
 
  • #245
Why not? They trained Osama Bin Laden.

What did they train him do? How do you know this? Be specific.
 
  • #246
The CIA trained osama and fellow terrorists to fight the soviets in the 70s
 
  • #247
JohnDubYa said:
Adam, I am going to ask you a loaded question... loaded with truth. I suppose this question will be painful and frustrating for you because of your personal sense of order relies on clinging to falsehoods.

Are you ready? Here goes...

Why are you stupid?

Dont go insulting people just because they have a different opinion than yourself, that comment says more about you than him.
 
  • #248
Dont go insulting people just because they have a different opinion than yourself, that comment says more about you than him.

You missed the point completely --- that loaded questions cannot be answered and should not be answered. The fact that Adam would look upon such a question as an insult displays the inherent fallacy of a loaded question. After all, I was just asking a question, right? After all, he should be able to just answer the question, right? What's the harm in just merely asking a question?
 
  • #249
The CIA trained osama and fellow terrorists to fight the soviets in the 70s

You only answered one of my questions. The other was "How do you know this?"

I am not saying you are wrong. But I would like to see your point validated by a credible source.
 
  • #251
There is no mention of bin Laden anywhere in the article.

Find a link that tells me something I didn't already know.
 
  • #252
well I appologise if I wasted your time.

I thought it was interesting..
 
  • #253
JohnDubYa said:
Adam, I am going to ask you a loaded question... loaded with truth. I suppose this question will be painful and frustrating for you because of your personal sense of order relies on clinging to falsehoods.

Are you ready? Here goes...

Why are you stupid?

Wow. More ad hominem garbage. Instead of resorting (as usual) to these personal attacks, why don't you (for once) try answering the questions posed in these threads? You know, that whole "on-topic" thing?
 
  • #254
JohnDubYa said:
What did they train him do? How do you know this? Be specific.

Haven't we covered this extensively in other threads?
 
  • #255
Yes Several times, and I've posted many links to it in one of these iraq threads.

And WTF is a 'loaded' question anyhow?
 
  • #256
JohnDubYa said:
You missed the point completely --- that loaded questions cannot be answered and should not be answered. The fact that Adam would look upon such a question as an insult displays the inherent fallacy of a loaded question. After all, I was just asking a question, right? After all, he should be able to just answer the question, right? What's the harm in just merely asking a question?

Actually you're presenting a false comparison here. I didn't insult anyone here. You did. I asked questions directly related to the topic, with no lies, misdirections, or unsupported assumptions. You didn't.

When you feel capable of posting on-topic, please do come back and try again.
 
  • #257
Smurf said:
And WTF is a 'loaded' question anyhow?

It's the Dubya label for any question he feels threatened by, any question which, if answered honestly, might perforate his otherwise ironclad support of a ridiculous mockery of a government.
 
  • #258
A little lesson in Logic for Adam (and Prometheus).

A loaded question is negatively presumptous. For example:

"Why are you so stupid?"

In order to answer the question, the respondent has to assume the negative connotation embedded in the question.

Now, "Are you stupid?" is not loaded. The question does not assume stupidity on part of the respondent.

YOu asked:

So which part was good?

* The thousands of corpses?
* The destruction of Iraq's infrastructure?
* The theft of Iraqi oil?
* The massive profits for Bush, Cheney, and their friends?
* The dead US troops?
* The complete loss of international trust of the US administration?
* The global impression that the US administration has turned governing a nation, going to war, and killing thousands of people into nothing more than a business opportunity?

Your question presumes that those seven bulleted items are the only possible outcomes of the Iraq War, for which I am to pick just one. So not only did you ask a loaded question, you employed the Fallacy of Limited Options as well.

We all ask loaded questions, but you phrased yours in such a way that it would have taken me too much contortion to sift out the assumptions. Rather than that, I asked you to ask me honest questions.
 
Last edited:
  • #259
Sorry, you're wrong (or deliberately misleading) yet again, Dubya. My question does not present those options as the only possible outcomes of the invasion of Iraq. You are able to pick one or more of the items. You are able to pick the last item, not grouped with the rest. Heck, I'd be overjoyed if you provided your own item, something new to add to teh list, which shows why the invasion was good.

All I wanted was one thing which shows why you think the invasion of Iraq was good. That was the entirety of the question. There was nothing "loaded" about it, nothing misleading or tricky. No cards up any sleaves. Your misuse of the logical fallacies, and erroneous assertions of their occurrence, has not gone unnoticed.

Then I asked a simple question yet again: Would that "good reason" still be worth it if your own family was splattered all over the neighbourhood as a result?
 
  • #260
well.. saddam WAS caught and he wasnt very nice...

next target: George W Bush.
 
Last edited:
  • #261
Adam, quit screwing around and read the following:

So which part was good?

* The thousands of corpses?
* The destruction of Iraq's infrastructure?
* The theft of Iraqi oil?
* The massive profits for Bush, Cheney, and their friends?
* The dead US troops?
* The complete loss of international trust of the US administration?
* The global impression that the US administration has turned governing a nation, going to war, and killing thousands of people into nothing more than a business opportunity?

You couldn't find a better example of the Fallacy of Limited Options if you tried. It is OBVIOUS that your question is loaded. So why are you trying to defend it?
 
  • #262
He did say he'd be over joyed if you came up with your own reason why the war was a good idea.
 
  • #263
Good things coming from this war:

Saddam will face justice.

Saddam will no longer kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

Thousands of Iraqi families now know what happened to their relatives that previously disappeared.

Shi'ite Muslims can now worship freely.

There is a good chance the Kurds will finally be able to live in peace.

Democracy has a chance of taking root in an Arabic country. (How good of a chance is anyone's guess, but the chance is undeniable.)

The Iraqi people have a chance to be truly free.

Saddam's sons are dead.

We no longer need to wonder about Saddam's capability of using WMDs. (We didn't know for sure before, now we do.)

Now for military matters...

We now have the best trained and experienced troops in the world. (Can't buy that kind of training for any amount of money.)

Our military weaponry has been tested in extreme conditions.

We have managed to filter out those in our military who have no stomach for fighting.

We have learned a great deal about logistic support.

We now know what we could face in the future in terms of Islamic fundamentalist fighting tactics.

Those are just a few.
 
  • #264
Can you imagine an Iraqi who lost his family to Saddam, or is the best you can do an Iraqi which is killed by American bombs? I can tell you for a fact, there are several hundred thousand less of the latter. I think that about defeats any arguments against this war.
 
  • #265
Right, studentx. Those who oppose the war simply do not fathom how nasty Saddam's regime really was. What Saddam did to hundreds of thousands of people was unspeakably cruel.
 
  • #266
I've always told people that Saddam's attack on Khabul (i think) was much worse than 9/11. 5000 people died emediatly, and twice that in the aftermath of chemical and biological weapons. Theres no doubt Saddam was a bad man.
 
  • #267
JohnDubYa said:
Good things coming from this war:

Saddam will face justice.

Saddam will no longer kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

Thousands of Iraqi families now know what happened to their relatives that previously disappeared.

Shi'ite Muslims can now worship freely.

There is a good chance the Kurds will finally be able to live in peace.

Democracy has a chance of taking root in an Arabic country. (How good of a chance is anyone's guess, but the chance is undeniable.)

The Iraqi people have a chance to be truly free.

Saddam's sons are dead.

We no longer need to wonder about Saddam's capability of using WMDs. (We didn't know for sure before, now we do.)
First, thanks for finally attempting to answer the first question.

Now answer the second: Would those things be worth the splattering of your family all over the neighbourhood?


And now on to the funny stuff...
Saddam will face justice.
If they allow those who have lost relatives and spouses to his rule the honour of executing him, sure. I hope they do.

Saddam will no longer kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.
Has there yet been any reliable estimate for the numbers he killed?

But yes, this is good.

Thousands of Iraqi families now know what happened to their relatives that previously disappeared.
I hope so. I hope the effort is made.

Shi'ite Muslims can now worship freely.
They always did. Iraq under Saddam was a secular state, meaning the state itself was not governed by a religious group, or the state did not espouse anyone religion over others. However, they allowed people to worship in different ways. This is why the country has such a huge unmber of Shi'ites. If Saddam, who apparently killed people by the hundreds of thousands, wanted to oppress any form of worship, he would have killed them. This is one of the common misconceptions about Iraq under Saddam. He didn't give a damn about how people worshipped. They had all sorts. People had free education all the way through to university and post-grad studies. You just couldn't say anything bad about Saddam or the state, or they'd cane your feet.

There is a good chance the Kurds will finally be able to live in peace.
Are you aware that the Kurds were attacked more by Turkey than by Saddam?

Democracy has a chance of taking root in an Arabic country. (How good of a chance is anyone's guess, but the chance is undeniable.)
It has been established in many Arabic countries for a very long time.

The Iraqi people have a chance to be truly free.
The survivors?

Saddam's sons are dead.
They were complete bastiches, yes. However, I will never approve of people cheering and celebrating deaths, nor of the parading of corpses on TV for PR value.

We no longer need to wonder about Saddam's capability of using WMDs. (We didn't know for sure before, now we do.)
Yep. Go kill some innocent man, then say "On the good side, we'll never have to worry about that guy's plans to steal my car, whether he had such plans or not!" No, I'm not saying Saddam was a nice guy. It's an analogy. Look it up.

We now have the best trained and experienced troops in the world. (Can't buy that kind of training for any amount of money.)
No. Too easy.

Our military weaponry has been tested in extreme conditions.
Yes it has. You're right.

We have managed to filter out those in our military who have no stomach for fighting.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

We have learned a great deal about logistic support.
Very true.

We now know what we could face in the future in terms of Islamic fundamentalist fighting tactics.
Very bigoted and insane.
 
  • #268
studentx said:
Can you imagine an Iraqi who lost his family to Saddam, or is the best you can do an Iraqi which is killed by American bombs? I can tell you for a fact, there are several hundred thousand less of the latter. I think that about defeats any arguments against this war.

It does? How?
 
  • #269
JohnDubYa said:
Right, studentx. Those who oppose the war simply do not fathom how nasty Saddam's regime really was. What Saddam did to hundreds of thousands of people was unspeakably cruel.

Now (for your educational benefit) this is a logical fallacy. You state that those who disagree are merely ignorant, and you don't bother addressing any actual points.

I, and no doubt everyone else here, realizes perfectly how brutal Saddam Hussein was. That is not at all in question (at least not that I have seen). What is in question is law, justice, motivation, even more deaths at the hands of the invader, and other matters.
 
  • #270
Smurf said:
I've always told people that Saddam's attack on Khabul (i think) was much worse than 9/11. 5000 people died emediatly, and twice that in the aftermath of chemical and biological weapons. Theres no doubt Saddam was a bad man.
Do you mean Halabja?
A War Crime or an Act of War?

It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured."

The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein.

But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story.

I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent � that is, a cyanide-based gas � which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran.

I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.

In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq.

We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region.

Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change.

Thus America could alter the destiny of the Middle East in a way that probably could not be challenged for decades � not solely by controlling Iraq's oil, but by controlling its water. Even if America didn't occupy the country, once Mr. Hussein's Baath Party is driven from power, many lucrative opportunities would open up for American companies.

All that is needed to get us into war is one clear reason for acting, one that would be generally persuasive. But efforts to link the Iraqis directly to Osama bin Laden have proved inconclusive. Assertions that Iraq threatens its neighbors have also failed to create much resolve; in its present debilitated condition � thanks to United Nations sanctions � Iraq's conventional forces threaten no one.

Perhaps the strongest argument left for taking us to war quickly is that Saddam Hussein has committed human rights atrocities against his people. And the most dramatic case are the accusations about Halabja.

Before we go to war over Halabja, the administration owes the American people the full facts. And if it has other examples of Saddam Hussein gassing Kurds, it must show that they were not pro-Iranian Kurdish guerrillas who died fighting alongside Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Until Washington gives us proof of Saddam Hussein's supposed atrocities, why are we picking on Iraq on human rights grounds, particularly when there are so many other repressive regimes Washington supports?
(Stephen C. Pelletiere, The New York Times, January 31, 2003)

Stephen C. Pelletiere is author of "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Persian Gulf."
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 105 ·
4
Replies
105
Views
12K
  • · Replies 298 ·
10
Replies
298
Views
73K
  • · Replies 29 ·
Replies
29
Views
10K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
4K