Why is there starvation in human populations?

[croghan27]

Are you changing the subject again - this time global warming?

You really should have paid more attention in your reading comprehension class.

 

[WhoWee]

You really should have paid more attention in your reading comprehension class.

My comprehension is fine.

 

[croghan27]

My comprehension is fine.

Then your reading sucks.

Here is an interesting concept I came upon just after finishing the last post - it is by Gwynne Dyer and about climate warming, but the food reference may be helpful in this discussion:

 

[WhoWee]

Then your reading sucks.

Really?

I asked this question. "Are you changing the subject again - this time global warming? "

This, after you changed the subject from starvation in Africa to a political discussion of South America - then to farming in India compared to China in the context of global warming?

Btw - I don't think you've supported this comment yet - with regards to Africa.

"I would think that the hundreds of billions that the west takes from the Continent might have something to do with it."

Please support this statement before changing the topic again.

 

[croghan27]

Note the title of this thread ... it does not specify Africa. If I reference another geographic area I am trying to put it into a context, not change any subject. That you see a mention of global warming as a change or subject (did you see the 'but') says more about you than about the subject we are (or were until you got belligerent) discussing.

Illicit outflows increased from $1.06 trillion in 2006 to approximately $1.26 trillion in 2008, with average annual illicit outflows from developing countries averaging $725 billion to $810 billion, per year, over the 2000-2008 time period measured.



Illicit flows increased in current dollar terms by 18.0 percent per annum from $369.3 billion at the start of the decade to $1.26 trillion in 2008. When adjusted for inflation, the real growth of such outflows was 12.7 percent. Real growth of illicit flows by regions over the nine years is as follows:



•Middle East and North Africa (MENA) 24.3 percent,
•developing Europe 23.1 percent,
•Africa 21.9 percent,•Asia 7.85, and
•Western Hemisphere 5.18 percent.

http://iff-update.gfip.org/"

and that is the illicit money ...

You can do your own research from here ...

http://www.financialtaskforce.org/2011/03/10/africas-missing-millionsbillionstrillions/"

 

[WhoWee]

Note the title of this thread ... it does not specify Africa. If I reference another geographic area I am trying to put it into a context, not change any subject. That you see a mention of global warming as a change or subject (did you see the 'but') says more about you than about the subject we are (or were until you got belligerent) discussing.



http://iff-update.gfip.org/"

and that is the illicit money ...

You can do your own research from here ...

http://www.financialtaskforce.org/2011/03/10/africas-missing-millionsbillionstrillions/"

From your link:

"Top 10 countries with the highest measured cumulative illicit financial outflows between 2000 and 2008 were:



China: $2.18 trillion
Russia: $427 billion
Mexico: $416 billion
Saudi Arabia: $302 billion
Malaysia: $291 billion
United Arab Emirates: $276 billion
Kuwait: $242 billion
Venezuela: $157 billion
Qatar: $138 billion
Nigeria: $130 billion "

How does this support your claim?

 

[rootX]

Here is an interesting concept I came upon just after finishing the last post - it is by Gwynne Dyer and about climate warming, but the food reference may be helpful in this discussion:
http://www.embassymag.ca/dailyupdate/view/real_population_density_04-13-2011

I have come across China's land problem before (I assume you are also referring to https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3213412&postcount=51"). It sounds very similar to current oil problem. But, as far China has strong economy and military (which it does) it can get anything it wants.

 

[Andre]

Here is also a cause mentioned for starvation in human populations

It's not new, but the publication platform is interesting.

Part of the abstract:

Results derived fromWorld Bank and World Health Organization (WHO) studies suggest that for every million people living in absolute poverty in developing countries, there are annually at least 5,270 deaths and 183,000 Disability-Adjusted Life Years (DALYs) lost to disease. Combining these estimates with estimates of the increase in poverty owing to growth in biofuels production over 2004 levels leads to the conclusion that additional biofuel production may have resulted in at least 192,000 excess deaths
and 6.7 million additional lost DALYs in 2010.

 

[lcary]

They produce like there's no tommorow (joking) but I recall starting a thread why do poor people have children when they cannot support themselves.

One factor I'm sure that's a tiny bit involved is the fact that birth control products such as contraceptives and other services are not as available to people of the lower class demographic. I think what's more involved is that for some families the dynamic of parent child roles are difference as well. For example some farmers may have more kids even if they are poor because their children can contribute to the farm labor.

But even more so it's the fact that women in poverty are are not getting the education they need for better survival. Studies have shown once women are more educated birth rates start to go down.

some sources:
http://www.globalissues.org/article/206/poverty-and-population-growth-lessons-from-our-own-past

http://www.beadforlife.org/blog/2011/02/24/a-different-approach-to-birth-control-education/

http://www.yorku.ca/povproj/documents/ConferenceThemePaper.pdf

 

[rootX]

One factor I'm sure that's a tiny bit involved is the fact that birth control products such as contraceptives and other services are not as available to people of the lower class demographic. I think what's more involved is that for some families the dynamic of parent child roles are difference as well. For example some farmers may have more kids even if they are poor because their children can contribute to the farm labor.

But even more so it's the fact that women in poverty are are not getting the education they need for better survival. Studies have shown once women are more educated birth rates start to go down.

some sources:
http://www.globalissues.org/article/206/poverty-and-population-growth-lessons-from-our-own-past

http://www.beadforlife.org/blog/2011/02/24/a-different-approach-to-birth-control-education/

http://www.yorku.ca/povproj/documents/ConferenceThemePaper.pdf

This is an amazing program!

The majority of Ethiopia's population live in rural areas and when they are ill many do not seek medical advice, but a new government programme hopes to change this at a local level.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9464344.stm

 

[Dotini]

One reason for unnecessary starvation is the human reluctance to adopt entomophagy - the eating of insects.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[DaveC426913]

One reason for unnecessary starvation is the human reluctance to adopt entomophagy - the eating of insects.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

You sure about that? My bet is that, despite it being distasteful in first world countries, they have no problem with it in 3rd world countries. No, I think the problem with that is that, while nutritious and edible, I doubt the biomass of insects could support the indigenous human population. It's not like there are fields of bugs like crops.

 

[Dotini]

You sure about that?

I'm not completely sure about anything I haven't seen or done for myself - so I stand condemned of terrible doubts. However, I did read this:

"According to Hölldobler and Wilson (1990), up to 1/3 (33%) of the
terrestrial animal biomass (NOTE: not including aquatic animal, or
terrestrial and aquatic flowering plants and microorganisms) was made
up of ants and termites."

"Ants are everywhere on earth. When combined, all ants in the world
weigh about as much as all humans (Hölldobler & Wilson 1994)...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=536123

Respectfully yours,
Steve

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm not completely sure about anything I haven't seen or done for myself - so I stand condemned of terrible doubts. However, I did read this:

"According to Hölldobler and Wilson (1990), up to 1/3 (33%) of the
terrestrial animal biomass (NOTE: not including aquatic animal, or
terrestrial and aquatic flowering plants and microorganisms) was made
up of ants and termites."

"Ants are everywhere on earth. When combined, all ants in the world
weigh about as much as all humans (Hölldobler & Wilson 1994)...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=536123

Respectfully yours,
Steve

Yep. I'm aware of that. But imagine the logistical feat involved in extracting enough ants from an anthill to feed your family. I can't imagine how you'd do it at all, let alone practically.

 

[lisab]

Yep. I'm aware of that. But imagine the logistical feat involved in extracting enough ants from an anthill to feed your family. I can't imagine how you'd do it at all, let alone practically.

Perhaps if they were ever really considered as a food source, insects would be raised on an industrial scale, similar to the way cattle, pigs, and chickens are. It would be very inefficient if we had to go out an hunt those traditional food sources every day.

 

[Dotini]

Out in my neck of the woods, there is a vast forest of trees on the Olympic Peninsula, State of Washington. They all eventually rot and are consumed by termites, which may be easily scooped up by the handful.

I second lisab's idea about purposefully raising and harvesting the tastier ones.

Highest regards,
Steve

 

[DaveC426913]

Perhaps if they were ever really considered as a food source, insects would be raised on an industrial scale, similar to the way cattle, pigs, and chickens are. It would be very inefficient if we had to go out an hunt those traditional food sources every day.

Certainly.

But I still refute the original claim that it is the distastefulness of eating insects that is a contributor to starvation.

Further, this idea doesn't really solve anything. Why would the local people be able to agrifarm bugs any better than any other food crop? They still need food, water, harvesting equipment etc.

The original idea of Dotini's might have been to take advantage of an existing unexploited food source, but we just refuted that and are back to the need to bring resources, technology, manpower and consumables into the picture.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Certainly.

But I still refute the original claim that it is the distastefulness of eating insects that is a contributor to starvation.

Further, this idea doesn't really solve anything. Why would the local people be able to agrifarm bugs any better than any other food crop? They still need food, water, harvesting equipment etc.

The original idea of Dotini's might have been to take advantage of an existing unexploited food source, but we just refuted that and are back to the need to bring resources, technology, manpower and consumables into the picture.

This is exactly what I was thinking whilst reading these posts. I remember some years ago (way back in school) in a geography lesson watching a documentary about a tribe who ate local beetles. Weight for weight these beetles were 4x more nutritious than the local cattle. Even though that's all well and good the energy needed for the logistics of farming and supply these beetles would most likely outweigh any advantage.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-10766941

"In the Netherlands, insect rearing companies are already in business, typically they tend to breed large beetles, crickets and locusts."


There seems to be some farming of insects, as well as other observations.

 

[DaveC426913]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-10766941

"In the Netherlands, insect rearing companies are already in business, typically they tend to breed large beetles, crickets and locusts."


There seems to be some farming of insects, as well as other observations.

Yes. But Netherlands is a loooong way from starving third world populations, in more ways than just distance. We have the same problem with logistics as ever.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-10766941

"In the Netherlands, insect rearing companies are already in business, typically they tend to breed large beetles, crickets and locusts."


There seems to be some farming of insects, as well as other observations.

Interesting stuff! Especially this bit;

"It's also possible, though not yet commercially viable, to extract the protein, and produce a kind of meat substitute, similar to the Quorn products we're already used to"

Perhaps in the future we'll be able to buy McBeetle Burgers. But echoing DaveC this isn't related to starvation. The technology and infrastructure necessary to farm insects is orders of magnitude greater than that needed for farming mammals/birds etc. Can you imagine trying to clip the wings of a billion locus, or trying to stop your ants tunneling away

 

[WhoWee]

Yep. I'm aware of that. But imagine the logistical feat involved in extracting enough ants from an anthill to feed your family. I can't imagine how you'd do it at all, let alone practically.

Perhaps Politicians should start promising a Chocolate Fountain for every yard (to attract/coat/kill and render the ants appetizing)?

 

[fuzzyfelt]

http://edible.com/shop/insectivore/ :)

Yes, I think the article I linked is more concerned with longer term global issues, and that insect farming in Europe could be an efficient use of resources to combat future famine.

But in warmer climes a main cause of famine is a lack of self-sufficiency in food. Generally insects are better suited to these climates, with faster rates of population growth. And like the article stated, they require less food and water to farm, and as a source of sustenance and you don’t have to eat as much to survive. And since it gives examples of insect farming in warmer environments, more insect farming is worth more thought.

Perhaps the difficulties ray m b raised could be overcome by harvest and consumption at pupae or the larvae stage which can last some years? E.g., witchety and bandi grubs or the long history of heliculture-

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/01/13-02.html ,
or learn harvest and enjoy rather intact or ground up - http://northlandfsc.blogspot.com/2011/03/crickets-theyre-not-just-for-breakfast.html

 

[WhoWee]

Certainly.

But I still refute the original claim that it is the distastefulness of eating insects that is a contributor to starvation.

Further, this idea doesn't really solve anything. Why would the local people be able to agrifarm bugs any better than any other food crop? They still need food, water, harvesting equipment etc.

The original idea of Dotini's might have been to take advantage of an existing unexploited food source, but we just refuted that and are back to the need to bring resources, technology, manpower and consumables into the picture.

I agree, this won't solve the problem. However, with proper education, harvesting could provide supplementary nutrition.

Anytime we start talking about large (unnatural) farming endeavors - I worry about unintended consequences.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Anytime we start talking about large (unnatural) farming endeavors - I worry about unintended consequences.

That's reasonable. There would be many considerations, including insecticides.

 

[WhoWee]

That's reasonable. There would be many considerations, including insecticides.

Admittedly, I don't know much about termites, but harvesting them as a supplement sounds realistic in wooded areas. Additionally, I would think they could be grown most anywhere underground (to control temperature extremes) with some rotting wood (maybe sawdust?) and moisture?

 

[fuzzyfelt]

This seems related to the original statement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9990715

Admittedly, I don't know much about termites, but harvesting them as a supplement sounds realistic in wooded areas. Additionally, I would think they could be grown most anywhere underground (to control temperature extremes) with some rotting wood (maybe sawdust?) and moisture?

I don’t know much about termites either, WhoWee, but it sounds worth further thought.

 

[WhoWee]

This seems related to the original statement.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9990715

I don’t know much about termites either, WhoWee, but it sounds worth further thought.

I found this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091120000437.htm

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks WhoWee. The idea of farming farmers sounds very efficient!

 

[WhoWee]

Thanks WhoWee. The idea of farming farmers sounds very efficient!

Well, that's one way to look at it.