Why Isn't y Treated as a Constant in the Product Rule?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the product rule in calculus, specifically in the context of solving a first-order linear ordinary differential equation (ODE). Participants explore why the derivative of \(y\) is treated as \(\frac{dy}{dx}\) rather than zero, and they also address the integration of \(\sec^2(x)\) in the solution process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why, when using the product rule, the derivative of \(y\) is \(\frac{dy}{dx}\) instead of zero, suggesting that \(y\) might be treated as a constant.
  • Another participant clarifies that \(y\) is a function of \(x\) and thus should not be treated as a constant, indicating that the chain rule applies.
  • Participants discuss the integration of \(\sec^2(x)\) and its relation to obtaining \(\tan(x) + C\), with some seeking clarification on the integration process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the initial question regarding the treatment of \(y\) as a constant. While some participants assert that \(y\) must be treated as a function of \(x\), the initial confusion remains unresolved. The integration of \(\sec^2(x)\) appears to be accepted, but the discussion on the product rule remains contested.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the definitions of derivatives and the nature of functions, which may not be explicitly stated. There are also unresolved steps in the integration process that participants reference without full elaboration.

find_the_fun
Messages
147
Reaction score
0
Find the gernal solution of [math]cosx\frac{dy}{dx}+(sinx)y=1[/math]

So [math]\frac{dy}{dx}+\frac{sinx}{cosx}y=\frac{1}{cosx}[/math]
[math]\frac{dy}{dx}+tan(x)y=csc(x)[/math] therefore [math]P(x)=tan(x)[/math]
Let [math]\mu (x) = e^{\int P(x) dx}=e^{\int tan(x) dx} =\frac{1}{cosx}[/math]

multiply both sides of the equation by integrating factor
[math]\frac{dy}{dx} \frac{1}{cosx}+y\frac{tanx}{cosx}=\frac{1}{cos^2x}[/math]

[math]\frac{d}{dx}[\mu(x)y]=\frac{d}{dx}[\frac{1}{cosx}y][/math] use product rule [math](\frac{1}{cosx})'y+\frac{1}{cosx}y'=\frac{tanx}{cosx}y+\frac{1}{cosx}\frac{dy}{dx}[/math]

Question 1: how come when we use the product rule and take the derivative of y with respect x we get [math]\frac{dy}{dx}[/math] and not 0? I say 0 because the derivative of a constant is 0 and aren't we treating y as a constant?

Next step: integrate

[math]\int \frac{d}{dx}[\frac{1}{cosx}y]dx = \int \frac{1}{cosx} x[/math]
[math]\frac{y}{cosx}=\ln{|-cosx|}+C[/math]
and [math]y=\ln{|-cosx|}cosx+Ccosx[/math]

Question 2: the back of book has [math]y=sinx+Ccosx[/math] Where did sin(x) come from?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Re: first order linear equation

This is how I would work the problem, and I hope to answer your questions along the way.

First, write the ODE in standard linear form:

$$\frac{dy}{dx}+\tan(x)y=\sec(x)$$

Compute the integrating factor:

$$\mu(x)=e^{\int\tan(x)\,dx}=\sec(x)$$

Hence, we find:

$$\sec(x)\frac{dy}{dx}+\sec(x)\tan(x)y=\sec^2(x)$$

Since $y$ is a function of $x$, when it is differentiated with respect to $x$, we cannot treat it as a constant, so we must write $$\frac{dy}{dx}$$. Thus, the left side is the differentiation of a product.

$$\frac{d}{dx}\left(\sec(x)y \right)=\sec^2(x)$$

Integrating with respect to $x$, we find:

$$\sec(x)y=\tan(x)+C$$

Multiply through by $\cos(x)$ (observing that $$\tan(x)\cos(x)=\frac{\sin(x)}{\cos(x)}\cos(x)=\sin(x)$$):

$$y(x)=\sin(x)+C\cos(x)$$

And this is our general solution.
 
Re: first order linear equation

How do you integrate [math]\sec^2(x)[/math] to get [math]\tan(x)+C[/math]?
 
Re: first order linear equation

find_the_fun said:
How do you integrate [math]\sec^2(x)[/math] to get [math]\tan(x)+C[/math]?

This comes from:

$$\frac{d}{dx}\left(\tan(x)+C \right)=\sec^2(x)$$
 
Re: first order linear equation

find_the_fun said:
Find the gernal solution of [math]cosx\frac{dy}{dx}+(sinx)y=1[/math]

So [math]\frac{dy}{dx}+\frac{sinx}{cosx}y=\frac{1}{cosx}[/math]
[math]\frac{dy}{dx}+tan(x)y=csc(x)[/math] therefore [math]P(x)=tan(x)[/math]
Let [math]\mu (x) = e^{\int P(x) dx}=e^{\int tan(x) dx} =\frac{1}{cosx}[/math]

multiply both sides of the equation by integrating factor
[math]\frac{dy}{dx} \frac{1}{cosx}+y\frac{tanx}{cosx}=\frac{1}{cos^2x}[/math]

[math]\frac{d}{dx}[\mu(x)y]=\frac{d}{dx}[\frac{1}{cosx}y][/math] use product rule [math](\frac{1}{cosx})'y+\frac{1}{cosx}y'=\frac{tanx}{cosx}y+\frac{1}{cosx}\frac{dy}{dx}[/math]

Question 1: how come when we use the product rule and take the derivative of y with respect x we get [math]\frac{dy}{dx}[/math] and not 0? I say 0 because the derivative of a constant is 0 and aren't we treating y as a constant?

To answer this question: we're not treating $y$ as a constant. We are treating $y=y(x)$ as a function of $x$, in which case we must use the chain rule.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K