Why nylon bass strings go dead on classical guitars: found an online article

[symbolipoint]

I asked about this some years ago but I cannot remember into which forum board I put it, but I wanted to know why the brightness of nylon bass strings go dead so fast on classical guitars and the related. I found an explanation in an online article, under the heading, String maintenance: Why do bass strings go dead? If anyone visits the page then scroll down to that heading. https://inside-guitar.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-classical-guitar-strings/

Too, be aware anyone who is interested, using cleaning fluid of any kind is not necessary in order to return the brightness to the bass strings. Just loosening them and wiping with cloth or paper towel and then re-tightening them up to tune is just as effective.

(Mod or Admin, you may want to move this post and topic to another place on the forum, if you can find it.)

 

[Hornbein]

I didn't believe it, but just tried it on my bass guitar and it worked.

 

[symbolipoint]

I didn't believe it, but just tried it on my bass guitar and it worked.

Just to be aware the distinction, the base strings on CLASSICAL and flamenco guitars are organic fiber filaments wrapped with metal wire windings. Bass guitar strings are all metal. My understanding about the tuning and sound quality effects between the two is not clear. But if you say "it worked", then I must believe you. Been a very long time since I handled any all metal guitar strings.

 

[hmmm27]

Interesting... piano bass strings are also wound, and do get a bit dusty after a few decades ; similar problem/solution ?

 

[symbolipoint]

I am checking that ref'ed article again. There is a section in it called, String maintenance: Why do nylon bass strings go dead. Notice, "nylon bass strings", which are silver-wire wrapped. IN FACT, through reading more in that section, the same idea might apply to all metal wire-wound musical strings, just as 'you' say, for the bass guitar's bass strings, and I might also guess, to piano strings.

 

[Hornbein]

Though it did help, the strings weren't bright enough for slap ebass. So I boiled 'em as usual.

Piano strings don't get oils from fingers. It might be worth a try, but piano strings are so expensive and difficult to work with, if you are going to change them all then you might as well get new. Boiling does work but the strings don't sty bright as long as new strings.

 

[Hornbein]

On a stringed instrument, round wound strings give more high overtones than flatwound. Why is that?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I kind of hope the two threads get merged to keep everything straight.
<Moderator's note: threads merged>

I think you need to define "brighter" quantitatively, It has to do with more energy in the higher harmonics, for sure, but I think you need to be able to look at two curves of power vs. frequency for this to be answerable from a physical point of view. (i.e. you need to factor out the psychoacoustics first)

 

[Baluncore]

Why is that?

If that is true, given both strings having the same mass per unit length, and the same tension and restoring force, it would have to be that roundwound is more flexible than the flatwound.

 

[Andy Resnick]

On a stringed instrument, round wound strings give more high overtones than flatwound. Why is that?

Do you have any reference(s) for this statement? Is this claim restricted to any particular kind of stringed instrument (acoustic, electric, plucked, bowed...)?

 

[symbolipoint]

I kind of hope the two threads get merged to keep everything straight.
<Moderator's note: threads merged>

I think you need to define "brighter" quantitatively, It has to do with more energy in the higher harmonics, for sure, but I think you need to be able to look at two curves of power vs. frequency for this to be answerable from a physical point of view. (i.e. you need to factor out the psychoacoustics first)

Main idea is that the older strings (especially the basses) sound dull to the listener, who is not a fabricated, intentionally designed machine. When the sound is dull, then it is dull. When the sound is bright, then it is bright. The listener knows how is the sound quality, and so do most of the other listeners who are in the vicinity. The option, if available, to use instrumentation to acoustically analyze the different sound qualities of the fresh, and old, and treated strings, is unnecessary (unless a person has a special purpose for doing this).

 

[Baluncore]

The subject has been aired elsewhere.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/flatwound-vs-roundwound-bass-strings/

 

[Hornbein]

Do you have any reference(s) for this statement? Is this claim restricted to any particular kind of stringed instrument (acoustic, electric, plucked, bowed...)?

The difference is quite pronounced. Anyone can hear it.

Perhaps flatwounds have a wider wrap. I can imagine this would be stiffer with respect to short wavelengths. But flatwounds are so out of style I haven't seen any for a long time so I'm not sure how wide the wrap is.

 

[pinball1970]

Though it did help, the strings weren't bright enough for slap ebass. So I boiled 'em as usual.

Piano strings don't get oils from fingers. It might be worth a try, but piano strings are so expensive and difficult to work with, if you are going to change them all then you might as well get new. Boiling does work but the strings don't sty bright as long as new strings.

Yes and on the fret board, dead skin cells, sebum and dust that sticks there. Changing the strings I always give the neck a good wipe down too.

 

[Mondayman]

dead skin cells

That mixture of dirt, skin, and sweat that builds up on fretboards (and inside of work gloves), I call it hand cheese .

 

[pinball1970]

That mixture of dirt, skin, and sweat that builds up on fretboards (and inside of work gloves), I call it hand cheese .

Yuk.

 

[BWV]

I only use 100% organic, free-range catgut strings on my guitar, not sure if it makes a difference but helps to know I am part of the solution, not the problem

Seriously, many top classical guitar players change the basses more frequently than the trebles. In addition to oil from fingers, wound strings get worn down faster just through friction

 

[symbolipoint]

Seriously, many top classical guitar players change the basses more frequently than the trebles. In addition to oil from fingers, wound strings get worn down faster just through friction

And they brake, too; especially D, string #4. There is a way to make the basses last longer but not without limits.

 

[symbolipoint]

Seriously, many top classical guitar players change the basses more frequently than the trebles. In addition to oil from fingers, wound strings get worn down faster just through friction

Pressure between fingers and frets abrades the metal windings of the basses, allowing then the pressure to cut into the thin organic fiber strands, so the string brakes. One can but also becomes tired of removing the string, offsetting its position by a few millimeters along its length, retightening and tuning it. Most people don't want to go through the chore, so just changing to a new string becomes easier.

Also, controlling the string positional change is imperfect and difficult to control. Person might have trouble putting the abraded spots away from another corresponding fret.

 

[JT Smith]

Interesting to hear about boiling strings to extend their life. What's a decent set of classical strings set you back?

 

[Hornbein]

Interesting to hear about boiling strings to extend their life. What's a decent set of classical strings set you back?

It's for electric bass. $20. For slap style you must have bright strings. I've not heard of guitarists doing this. The treble strings break first I guess.

 

[symbolipoint]

It's for electric bass. $20. For slap style you must have bright strings. I've not heard of guitarists doing this. The treble strings break first I guess.

Interesting, but not completely understood. Treble strings break first? Is this for a set of all-metal strings, like for a acoustic steel string guitar or electric guitar? The strings which break first on a classical guitar are certainly not the trebles. Depending on usage, they can last two or more years. The bass strings on a classical guitar wear-out much sooner than the treble strings.

 

[symbolipoint]

Interesting to hear about boiling strings to extend their life. What's a decent set of classical strings set you back?

This makes me wonder, how will the nylon (or silk?) strands hold-up to the boiling (meaning the bass strings of classical guitar)? (Still, I would not do a boil for bass strings for classical guitar; would only loosen, wipe, retighten.)

 

[JT Smith]

I had no idea people used nylon strings on electric basses.

I've been told by a technical representative at a climbing rope manufacturer that hot water can be used to rejuvenate nylon climbing ropes. Here's an excerpt from the email he sent me:

"The best thing you can do to restore dynamic properties is
wash the rope in hot water. Yes that's right
'hot' water. It is not possible for domestic
hot water systems to get the water temperature hot enough to
cause any damage to the nylon. When we prepare the
nylon for making a rope we actually steam it in an autoclave
at a temperature of 125C (257F). The best that can be
achieved in domestic water heating is 100C (boiling
temperature)."

 

[Hornbein]

Metal strings are more massive so are under higher tension hence louder and brighter. Historically A was 432 cps then changed to 440 to increase string tension/loudness. I think it was because as audiences grew larger so did the need for a more penetrating sound. Same thing for the transition from the viol to violin.

 

[Hornbein]

I had no idea people used nylon strings on electric basses.

I've been told by a technical representative at a climbing rope manufacturer that hot water can be used to rejuvenate nylon climbing ropes. Here's an excerpt from the email he sent me:

"The best thing you can do to restore dynamic properties is
wash the rope in hot water. Yes that's right
'hot' water. It is not possible for domestic
hot water systems to get the water temperature hot enough to
cause any damage to the nylon. When we prepare the
nylon for making a rope we actually steam it in an autoclave
at a temperature of 125C (257F). The best that can be
achieved in domestic water heating is 100C (boiling
temperature)."

Huh. Ropes get dirty, friction goes up, elasticity decreases..

 

[Hornbein]

I had no idea people used nylon strings on electric basses.

I've been told by a technical representative at a climbing rope manufacturer that hot water can be used to rejuvenate nylon climbing ropes. Here's an excerpt from the email he sent me:

"The best thing you can do to restore dynamic properties is
wash the rope in hot water. Yes that's right
'hot' water. It is not possible for domestic
hot water systems to get the water temperature hot enough to
cause any damage to the nylon. When we prepare the
nylon for making a rope we actually steam it in an autoclave
at a temperature of 125C (257F). The best that can be
achieved in domestic water heating is 100C (boiling
temperature)."

You can get nylon wrapped ebass strings, but they are even deader than metal flatwound. They are unpopular. I'm surprised they are still made.

 

[symbolipoint]

I had no idea people used nylon strings on electric basses.

I did not say that and I did not suggest that; in case your post refers to mine, #23. (My misunderstanding among a few of the posts on the topic)

Still this part was interesting and relates at least, to nylon:

I've been told by a technical representative at a climbing rope manufacturer that hot water can be used to rejuvenate nylon climbing ropes. Here's an excerpt from the email he sent me:

"The best thing you can do to restore dynamic properties is
wash the rope in hot water. Yes that's right
'hot' water. It is not possible for domestic
hot water systems to get the water temperature hot enough to
cause any damage to the nylon. When we prepare the
nylon for making a rope we actually steam it in an autoclave
at a temperature of 125C (257F). The best that can be
achieved in domestic water heating is 100C (boiling
temperature)."

 

[JT Smith]

...in case your post refers to mine, #23.

I was responding to what Hornbein had posted. You wrote about classical guitars in your OP.

 

[JT Smith]

Huh. Ropes get dirty, friction goes up, elasticity decreases..

Except that heat isn't really necessary to clean a rope. I got the impression that something else was going on. Climbing ropes are more complicated than wound guitar strings.