News Why should we care if china become a world power?

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Concerns about China becoming a superpower revolve around the potential for irresponsible use of power, akin to the threats posed by North Korea. While China's economic growth has lifted millions out of poverty, it raises questions about environmental impacts and social costs. The discussion emphasizes that the U.S. should focus on its own national defense rather than relying on alliances, as the global landscape has shifted away from traditional military invasions. There's a belief that economic competition does not necessarily harm other nations, as wealth creation can benefit all. Ultimately, the conversation reflects a complex interplay between international relations, economic development, and national security.
  • #31
OmCheeto said:
Ah. hahahhaaha! We live on a finite world.
How can resources not be fixed?


Because you do not know what you have until it is gone.

The Chinese make pencils for students, I hardly think this makes them a world superpower.
 
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  • #32
fourier jr said:
Really? The United States managed to become one! Is the hypocrisy in the US really this blatant?

I'll repeat myself again, have you even ever been to China? And I'm not talking about just to the major cities in China like Beijing, but have you ever even been to the countryside in China where people live in unbelievable squalor? No? The only reason you think that China has become a superpower is because of only what the media reports. I have passed by some of the places mention in the article below, and let me tell you it is nothing more than a hell hole on Earth.

From a WSJ article entitled

The Truth About China
The Western press is full of stories these days on China's arrival as a superpower. A steady stream of Western political and business delegations visit Beijing, confident of China's economy, which continues to grow rapidly. Investment pours in. Crowning China's new status, Beijing will host the 2008 Summer Olympics.

But after spending all of 2005 and some of 2006 traveling through China—visiting not just her teeming cities but her innermost recesses, where few Westerners go, and speaking with scores of dissidents, Communist Party officials, and everyday people -- my belief that the 21st century will not belong to the Chinese has only been reinforced. True, 200 million of China's subjects, fortunate to work for an expanding global market, are increasingly enjoying a middle-class standard of living. The remaining one billion, however, are among the poorest and most exploited people in the world, lacking even minimal rights and public services. The Party, while no longer totalitarian, is still cruel and oppressive.

Its mendacity has been fully displayed in China's AIDS crisis. The problem is gravest in Henan province, where an untold number of poor peasants contracted AIDS during the 1990s from selling their blood plasma—a process that involves having their blood drawn, pooled with other blood and then, once the plasma has been removed, put back into their bodies. China didn't conduct HIV tests and therefore ended up infecting donors by giving them back tainted blood. Victims are now reportedly dying in the hundreds of thousands.

The government's initial reaction was to deny that the problem existed, cordon off AIDS-affected areas and let the sick die (a pattern that the government tried to repeat when SARS broke out). In this case, police barred entry to villages where infected people lived (new maps of the province even appeared without the villages). Forced to acknowledge the problem after the international media began reporting on it, the Party nonetheless continues to obfuscate.

When Bill Clinton visited Henan in 2005 to distribute AIDS medicine, for example, the Party prevented him from visiting the worst-off villages. Instead, in Henan's capital city, he posed with several Party-selected AIDS orphans as the cameras clicked. It was an elaborate public-relations charade: China, with the West's help, was tackling AIDS!

Had Mr. Clinton been given a tour by Hu Jia, a human-rights activist, a far grimmer picture would have emerged. Only 30, he is a democrat and a practicing Buddhist who favors Tibetan independence. In 2004, Mr. Hu gave up studying medicine to look after Henan's sick. Months after Mr. Clinton's photo-op, Mr. Hu and I traveled to one of the villages that the former president missed: Nandawu, home to 3,500 people. It's not hard to visit—you can get past the police checkpoint at the village's entrance by hiding under a tarpaulin on a tractor-trailer, and the police fear AIDS too much to enter the village itself.

What I saw there, however, will remain with me forever. The disease inflicts at least 80% of the families there; in every hovel we entered an invalid lay dying. Most of the sufferers had no medicine. One woman put a drip on her sick husband, a man who has been bedridden for two years and who is covered with sores. What did the bottle contain? She didn't know. Why was she doing this? "I saw in the hospital and on television that sick people had to be put on the drip."

As long as Mr. Hu worked alone to help the sick, bringing them clothes, money and food, the Party left him alone. But he has recently drawn attention to himself by urging the victims to form an organization that can demand more from the government. The Party will sometimes put up with isolated dissent, but it won't tolerate an "unauthorized" association. Several months ago, the government placed Mr. Hu under house arrest in Beijing.

But dissent cannot be stifled everywhere. There has been an explosion of revolts in the vast countryside. The government estimates the number of public clashes with the authorities (some occurring in the industrial suburbs too) at 60,000 a year. But some experts think that the true figure is upward of 150,000 and increasing. When, in late 2006, I reached one village in the heart of the Shaanxi Province after a 40-hour journey from Beijing by train, car and tractor, I saw no trace of an uprising that had taken place a month earlier. Alerted by a text message sent from the village, the Hong Kong press had reported a violent clash between the peasants and the police, leaving people injured and missing or even dead, with the authorities spiriting away the bodies.

I pieced together the reasons that had provoked the uprising. The village had a dilapidated school, without heating, chalk or a teacher. In principle, schooling is compulsory and free, but the Party secretary, the village kingpin, made parents pay for heating and chalk. Then a teacher came from the city who wanted to be paid more than his government wages. He demanded extra money from the parents. Half of the parents, members of the most prosperous clan, agreed; the other half, from the poorer clan, refused.

A skirmish erupted, and the teacher fled. The Party secretary tried to intervene and was lynched. Then the police roared in with batons and guns. The school has reopened, the teacher replaced with a villager who knows how to read and write but "nothing more than that," he admits.

The uprisings express peasants' despair over the bleak future that awaits them. Emigration from the countryside might be a way out, but it's not easy to find a permanent job in the city. All kinds of permits are necessary, and the only way to get them is to bribe bureaucrats. The lot of the migrant—and China now has 200 million of them—is to move from work site to work site, earning a pittance at best. The migrants usually don't receive permission to bring their families with them, and even if they could, obtaining accommodation and schooling for their children would be virtually impossible.

The fate of Chinese citizens often depends on where they are from. Someone born in Shanghai is considered an aristocrat and conferred the right to housing and schooling in Shanghai. Someone born in a village, however, can only go to the village school, until a university admits him -- a rare feat for a peasant. An American scholar, Feiling Wang, had come to China to study this system of discrimination, which few in the West know about, but the government expelled him.

Villagers often told me that it wasn't the local Party secretary whom they most hated, but rather the family-planning agents who enforce China's one-child policy, often subjecting women to horrific violence. The one-child policy is not only monstrous, it is yielding an increasingly elderly population in need of care—a problem that a poor country like China is unprepared to handle.

Will China's surging economic growth end the rumbling discontent? Not according to the esteemed economist Mao Yushi, under house arrest for asking the government to apologize for the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. He doesn't trust the Party's claims of a 10% annual growth rate -- and why believe the official statistics when the Party lies so consistently about everything? Doing his own calculations, he arrives at a rate of about 8% per year, vigorous but no "miracle," as some in the West describe it.

Moreover, he believes that the current growth rate isn't sustainable: natural bottlenecks—scarcity of energy, raw materials, and especially water—will get in the way. Also, Mr. Mao says, the fact that investment decisions frequently obey political considerations instead of the market has helped generate an unemployment rate that is likely closer to 20% than to the officially acknowledged 3.5%.

Many in the West think that Chinese growth has created an independent middle class that will push for greater political freedom. But what exists in China, Mr. Mao argues, is not a traditional middle class but a class of parvenus, newcomers who work in the military, public administration, state enterprises or for firms ostensibly private but in fact Party-owned.

The Party picks up most of the tab for their mobile phones, restaurant bills, "study" trips abroad, imported luxury cars and lavish spending at Las Vegas casinos. And it can withdraw these advantages at any time. In March, China announced that it would introduce individual property rights for the parvenus (though not for the peasants). They will now be able to pass on to their children what they have acquired—another reason that they aren't likely to push for the democratization of the regime that secures their status.

Because China's economy desperately needs Western consumers and investors, China's propagandists do all they can to woo foreign critics. "Do you dare deny China's success story, her social stability, economic growth, cultural renaissance and international restraint?" one Party-sponsored scholar asks me in Paris. I respond that political and religious oppression, censorship, entrenched rural poverty, family-planning excesses and rampant corruption are just as real as economic growth in today's China. "What you are saying is true, but affects only a minority yet to benefit from reforms," he asserts.

Yet nothing guarantees that this so-called minority—one billion people!—will integrate with modern China. It is just as possible that it will remain poor, since it has no say in determining its fate, even as Party members get richer. The scholar underscores my fundamental assumption: "You don't have any confidence in the Party's ability to resolve the pertinent issues you have raised."

That's true. I don't.

©2007 The Wall Street Journ
The Soviet Union had tons of poverty and pollution and they were a superpower no prob. China has nukes and their own space program already, dude. Soon they may have their own GPS satellite network (which only the U.S. and the Russian Federation / ex-Soviets have right now) and will probably be on the moon. And they're just getting started.
Since when does becoming a nuclear power equate to being a superpower? North Korea has nukes but has way too much poverty and such low standards of living that they are centuries away from ever becoming a superpower. You realize that China ranks only about 80-100th in the world in terms of GDP per capita right? All of that new "wealth" that China is supposedly getting is hardly being evenly distributed among its population. If you have never been to China then you wouldn't know. You have to see with your own eyes how many millions of people in China live in extreme poverty.
 
  • #33
DrClapeyron said:
Because you do no know what you have until it is gone.

The Chinese make pencils for students, I hardly think this makes them a world superpower.
They are doing a lot more than that.
Virtually every durable good I have purchased in the last 2 years has been made in China.
The next car I was considering buying is made in China.

But I heard the people of India are making a car about the same size for a quarter of the price. Finally, a car I can afford with less than 100,000 miles on the odometer...
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
Canada is a member of NATO and they know if anyone messes with them, we'll jump to their aid. ...

fourier jr said:
Really? The United States managed to become one! Is the hypocrisy in the US really this blatant?
Well maybe NATO need not save all the Canadians.
 
  • #35
The Chinese manufacture durable goods like bicycles and baby seats but not F-14's and GPS satellites.
 
  • #36
DrClapeyron said:
The Chinese manufacture durable goods like bicycles and baby seats but not F-14's and GPS satellites.

Ok. But who shot down who's satellite last year?
Or should I check out snopes?

I think I'm trying to be the ambassador here.
Why are we picking on China?
Are we feeling a bit insecure?
 
  • #37
I see there's a huge range of estimates on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)" . I'm fairly sure the generally accepted figure was $11 trillion against the US's $13-14 trillion for perspective, and if China could somehow maintained its ~11% growth rate it would catch the US in 5 years. Now I see the world bank shows 5.3 trillion and the CIA has $7 trillion which I am fairly sure is a revision. I vaguely recall something on some discovery of major accounting flaws; can't nail it down.

Edit: yep, here we go:
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10329268"
 
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  • #38
OmCheeto said:
Ok. But who shot down who's satellite last year?
Or should I check out snopes?

I think I'm trying to be the ambassador here.
Why are we picking on China?
Are we feeling a bit insecure?


Richard Nixon went to China in the 1970's in which he pursued trade negotiations with the CHinese. Since then there has been a debate how much the US should invest in Chinese labor and resource. China has the largest potential in the world; there is no other country in the world like it in terms of population and natural resources and human capital. India lacks the natural resources and has been seeking isolationist policies since independence.
 
  • #39
gravenewworld said:
Since when does becoming a nuclear power equate to being a superpower?

Nukes alone don't. Nukes, plus the things above that I mentioned - an autonomous space program, a GPS system, and putting a man on the moon would. Having a gigantic military-industrial complex and the largest standing army in the world helps too.

I'll turn it around on you: since when does having a low poverty rate and a high standard of living equate to being a superpower? Switzerland and Dubai do pretty well on those counts, are they superpowers? Are you saying this because the U.S. does an exceptionally great job with poverty?

And why did you ignore my point that the Soviet Union didn't do well on either of those counts?

DrClapeyron said:
The Chinese manufacture durable goods like bicycles and baby seats but not F-14's and GPS satellites.

I'm not so sure about the GPS satellites, I don't think they're contracting that out, and I know that MacDonnell-Douglas started moving operations over there in the seventies; I'm pretty sure they're manufacturing all kinds of aircraft over there at this point.

Even if you don't believe they make those things, if they've put a man in space how much longer do you think it will be before they do?
 
  • #40
DrClapeyron said:
Richard Nixon went to China in the 1970's in which he pursued trade negotiations with the CHinese. Since then there has been a debate how much the US should invest in Chinese labor and resource. China has the largest potential in the world; there is no other country in the world like it in terms of population and natural resources and human capital. India lacks the natural resources and has been seeking isolationist policies since independence.

With all due respect, it sounds like you're working with information that's decades out of date. There isn't a debate about US and world investment in China, that investment has been going on strong since the 70's. At this point China is investing in other parts of the world itself.

And are you talking about India since independence from the British Empire?!? Do you have any idea how much the world and India have changed since then? India is very much a part of the world economy.
 
  • #41
CaptainQuasar said:
Nukes alone don't. Nukes, plus the things above that I mentioned - an autonomous space program, a GPS system, and putting a man on the moon would. Having a gigantic military-industrial complex and the largest standing army in the world helps too.

I'll turn it around on you: since when does having a low poverty rate and a high standard of living equate to being a superpower? Switzerland and Dubai do pretty well on those counts, are they superpowers? Are you saying this because the U.S. does an exceptionally great job with poverty?

And why did you ignore my point that the Soviet Union didn't do well on either of those counts?


Military strength means nothing without high standards of living. A superpower must have them all. Switzerland and Dubai certainly have high standards of living, but where is their military might? Why did you choose to ignore the fact that China is only ranked about 80-100 in the world in terms of GDP per capita? There certainly is poverty in the US (it is in every country in the world), but you will not see anyone in the US in extreme poverty like the millions of those in the country side like in China.


Russia did have poverty and military strength, but what happened to them? They didn't achieve superpower status until the end of WW2 and were crumbled only a few decades later due in large part to their nonexistent economy and low standards of living.
 
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  • #42
gravenewworld said:
I'll repeat myself again, have you even ever been to China?
nope.
And I'm not talking about just to the major cities in China like Beijing, but have you ever even been to the countryside in China where people live in unbelievable squalor? No? The only reason you think that China has become a superpower is because of only what the media reports. I have passed by some of the places mention in the article below, and let me tell you it is nothing more than a hell hole on Earth.
You have to see with your own eyes how many millions of people in China live in extreme poverty.

Well, I can only imagine that it is different than it is here.
Extreme Poverty, means something different to someone accustomed to having a plush house and car as compared to someone who just want's to see their children not starve to death.

The world is so different wherever you go.

I once invited a Chinese person to America. He left my old forum.
I even offered to pay the plane ticket! To Hawaii!

He said the world sucked.(I'm paraphrasing his words.) I told him that; "the world may only suck in your localized region."

I never heard from him again.
 
  • #43
OmCheeto said:
nope.


Well, I can only imagine that it is different than it is here.
Extreme Poverty, means something different to someone accustomed to having a plush house and car as compared to someone who just want's to see their children not starve to death.

The world is so different wherever you go.

I once invited a Chinese person to America. He left my old forum.
I even offered to pay the plane ticket! To Hawaii!

He said the world sucked.(I'm paraphrasing his words.) I told him that; "the world may only suck in your localized region."

I never heard from him again.

Extreme poverty has a definition:

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTPOVERTY/0,,contentMDK:20153855~menuPK:373757~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:336992,00.html


It is those living on roughly less than $1 per day. China has millions of people in this category.


Millions of people have mass migrated from rural areas in China to huge urban centers in hopes of escaping terrible poverty. The question now becomes who is going to grow all the food and farm the land to feed 1.2 billion people if everyone is leaving the terrible impoverished conditions in the countryside that tons of Chinese farmers have to live in everyday? The corruption and class conflicts in China make it almost impossible for thousands of people to escape impoverished conditions. Like the WSJ article pointed out, it is increasingly leading to more and more destabilization in more remote parts of the country.
 
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  • #44
gravenewworld said:
Military strength means nothing without high standards of living. A superpower must have them all.
Why?

...Why did you choose to ignore the fact that China is only ranked about 80-100 in the world in terms of GDP per capita? ...
Note that it's not meaningful to talk about 'military per capita' as a country needs only one. China's not comparable to G7 countries (yet) in terms of standard of living, but it's gross GDP certainly is and that may be all that's needed to build a super 'military' power. The soviets were a totalitarian system with failed economic system; the Chinese have (so far) maintained a ~ totalitarian political system w/ a highly successful economic system.
 
  • #45
gravenewworld said:
Extreme poverty has a definition:

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTPOVERTY/0,,contentMDK:20153855~menuPK:373757~pagePK:148956~piPK:216618~theSitePK:336992,00.html


It is those living on roughly less than $1 per day. China has millions of people in this category.


Millions of people have mass migrated from rural areas in China to huge urban centers in hopes of escaping terrible poverty. The question now becomes who is going to grow all the food and farm the land to feed 1.2 billion people if everyone is leaving the terrible impoverished conditions in the countryside that tons of Chinese farmers have to live in everyday? The corruption and class conflicts in China make it almost impossible for thousands of people to escape impoverished conditions. Like the WSJ article pointed out, it is increasingly leading to more and more destabilization in more remote parts of the country.

Hence. I will quote myself once again; "Have none but the Chinese been paying attention?"
 
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  • #46
Hmmm, why should we worry? So human rights abuse, horrendous pollution, and communism don't worry you?
 
  • #47
mheslep said:
Why?

See North Korea.

Note that it's not meaningful to talk about 'military per capita' as a country needs only one. China's not comparable to G7 countries (yet) in terms of standard of living, but it's gross GDP certainly is and that may be all that's needed to build a super 'military' power. The soviets were a totalitarian system with failed economic system; the Chinese have (so far) maintained a ~ totalitarian political system w/ a highly successful economic system.

But total GDP means nothing, GDP in terms of per capita is always the much more better measurement of wealth and standard of living. You can only keep your people impoverished for so long until they revolt. Look at all of the examples in history like the French Revolution , the fall of the USSR, etc. Huge amounts of gross GDP are also worthless if it is not evenly distributed. In China, if you have ever been there, you have the SUPER wealthy and then you have the SUPER poor. There is a growing middle class, but even they are light years away in terms of wealth from the upper classes.
 
  • #48
gravenewworld said:
Military strength means nothing without high standards of living.

Uh, yeah it does mean something. It means you're a superpower if your military power is great enough.

gravenewworld said:
A superpower must have them all.

Says who, you?

gravenewworld said:
Why did you choose to ignore the fact that China is only ranked about 80-100 in the world in terms of GDP per capita?

Because I'm not trying to prove China is a superpower. You're trying to prove they can't be a superpower because of social issues.

gravenewworld said:
Russia did have poverty and military strength, but what happened to them? They didn't achieve superpower status until the end of WW2 and were crumbled only a few decades later due in large part to their nonexistent economy and low standards of living.

The U.S. wasn't considered a superpower until after WWII either.

Poverty rates and standards of living simply are not things that define superpowers. You've just declared that one of the two countries for which the term was invented is not worthy of your personal standards for a superpower.

I think I hear the sound of an axe grinding…

Go ahead, make your point about there being poverty in China. No one is going to disagree with you. You don't have to invent some reason to shout “You can't handle the truth!”. I would have taken your opinion on the matter much more seriously if you hadn't contrived such a cheesy way to bring it up.
 
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  • #49
Plus, look at the US. Now imagine that with 1 billion people! Need I say more?
 
  • #50
I spent a week in Ningbo, across the bay from Shanghai. The sun never shines there due to the smog. Developement is huge but it's done by workers who live at the worksite and hang on bamboo scaffolding. They want all things "Western" in their own fashion over there. I never saw any hositility towards the West but there were a lot of folks trying to take me for my last cent when I tried to buy anything. The living conditions I saw were 3rd world. China is a power but not a "superpower" IMO. The are extremely dependent on the Western world. Without it they would be ruined. In a nearby business park that spanned several square miles, every major company in the world you could think of has a factory of some sort.

If they were to attack any Western country, they would be shooting themselves in the foot, if not cutting off both their legs off.
 
  • #51
gravenewworld said:
See North Korea.
?? NK is dirt poor. Even if a country spends 70% of its GDP on the military if the GDP is nil then so is the military. See China. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html#Military" = $280Billion ('06). That's probably #2 or close to it.
But total GDP means nothing, GDP in terms of per capita is always the much more better measurement of wealth and standard of living. You can only keep your people impoverished for so long until they revolt. Look at all of the examples in history like the French Revolution , the fall of the USSR, etc. Huge amounts of gross GDP are also worthless ...
No. The Soviets never had a huge GDP. They bled the country so that a huge fraction of the economy was all military directed, the consequence of which was that even though the Soviet economy was a fraction of the size of the US the military spending of the two were roughly comparable. Caveat: this was true at least until the Reagan years when he said "I call and raise you $1 trillion." Soviets replied "glasnost!" and folded.
 
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  • #52
My point exactly drankin, as to why they need to not try and follow after the U.S. Pollution will only get worse if they do.(assuming worse is possible)
 
  • #53
Economist said:
What do you mean here? I think to state that their development is "helping their people somewhat" is a gross underestimate. Also, what do you mean "at the expense of their people?" I have heard that China's development has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, which to be sure is no small feat. How has hundreds of millions of people raising out of poverty hurt the others? I'm pretty sure that the others have not gotten poorer because some of their neighbors have become richer.
There are a few problems with China's development as a result of their government (mentioned by others):

-They are utterly destroying their environment (which also kills people).
-Their labor laws are inadequate to put it mildly (which also kills people).
-Their government is harsh when dealing with political dissent (they kill people).
 
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  • #54
CaptainQuasar said:
With all due respect, it sounds like you're working with information that's decades out of date. There isn't a debate about US and world investment in China, that investment has been going on strong since the 70's. At this point China is investing in other parts of the world itself.

And are you talking about India since independence from the British Empire?!? Do you have any idea how much the world and India have changed since then? India is very much a part of the world economy.


There is a debate in this thread concerning investment in Chinese labor and resource. The power of the CHinese to manufacture rubber bands is huge but can they manufacture commercial jets or surface to air defense systems that compete on the global level? Not at this point but at which point?

India continues to manufacture textiles and receives the same industrial input when it was a colony, this continues because the isolationist policies people believe that were thrusted upon them by the likes of Ghandi. The global impact of India continues to be its production of textiles not automobiles or industrial chemicals. That is exactly how much India has changed.
 
  • #55
russ_watters said:
There are a few problems with China's development as a result of their government (mentioned by others):


russ_watters said:
-They are utterly destroying their environment (which also kills people).

Again, there is a trade-off. How many people is their environmental problems killing and how many people was poverty killing? As well as other questions, such as, will them becoming more prosperous help with innovations and technologies that actually help the environment?

russ_watters said:
-Their labor laws are inadequate to put it mildly (which also kills people).

I don't know about labor laws, but I generally opposed most labor laws so I don't see this as a huge issue (but I realize most disagree).

russ_watters said:
-Their government is harsh when dealing with political dissent (they kill people).

I agree. China is becoming more economically free, but they are not politically free. Freedom across the board is very important and I do not condone their political system that allows them to kill dissenters.
 
  • #56
binzing said:
My point exactly drankin, as to why they need to not try and follow after the U.S. Pollution will only get worse if they do.(assuming worse is possible)


I don't think that's entirely fair, and it's not just the US they are following. Most European countries have a hand in the labor over there. They are following who they want to follow. Industrialization has a cost to any civilization. They could enact pollution reduction practices if the government had the forsight to enforce it but I imagine they are more interested in the short term profits and competing with other 3rd world countries. It's their choice on how to handle it. It's by know means our fault they choose to take short-cuts instead of learning from our environmental mistakes of the past.
 
  • #57
OmCheeto said:
Ah. hahahhaaha! We live on a finite world.
How can resources not be fixed?

Hahahaha!

Trees are "finite," but none of us seem to worry about not having enough for paper. Not to mention, even though trees are finite, we have plenty of people who intentionally grow trees in order to make a living. In other words, we have many trees precisely because people value trees enough to pay others to plant them.

Likewise, we have plenty of cows, horses, cats, dogs, etc, precisely because people can have property rights on these animals and that people can make some profit off of them. In fact, the problem with many endangered species is that it's illegal to own them (in other words, there are no property rights for them).

What about food? Isn't corn, milk, wheat, strawberries, etc finite? However, are you worried about their not being enough to go around? Drugs such as tobacco and marijuana are finite. Do you think that people will quit smoking these in the next couple hundred years because there is not enough to go around?

Notice that "natural" and "finite" are not the same thing as "fixed" (in other words, "natural" and "finite" can still be "variable"). Notice that human beings are able to control (at least to some degree) the amount of many natural resources.

Yes, with oil there are some differences. However, it has also been pointed out that there are many untapped oil reserves. Why has no one decided to get this oil out of the ground in some places? Precisely because it is "not worth it" (yet) to do so. Some oil reserves are more expensive to extract, and therefore the current payoff is not high enough to warrant extracting it. As oil becomes more and more scarce, and if consumers are demanding it at nearly the same rate, then the price will rise enough in order to actually make it profitable to extract the oil at these places. I am under the impression that the statistics that you cite (which state that oil will be gone in 50 years) make some mistakes. For one thing, I think they don't account for all of the untapped oil reserves. Furthermore, they assume that people will use oil at the exact same rate. Oil is obviously running out, however I just don't know how accurate the 50 years stat is.

To put it briefly, I'm just not as worried as you are about the oil situation. First of all, if oil is quickly depleting then prices will rise and people will surely substitute away from oil. For example, people will move closer to work, carpool more, ride their bike more, use public transportation more, drive less often for entertainment reasons, etc. Second, if oil is becoming more and more expensive, entrepenuers will surely be able to make very large profits by inventing alternatives. In other words, you're likely to see some great innovation in this industry.
 
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  • #58
gravenewworld said:
I'll repeat myself again, have you even ever been to China? And I'm not talking about just to the major cities in China like Beijing, but have you ever even been to the countryside in China where people live in unbelievable squalor? No? The only reason you think that China has become a superpower is because of only what the media reports. I have passed by some of the places mention in the article below, and let me tell you it is nothing more than a hell hole on Earth.

From a WSJ article entitled

The Truth About China

What are the chances that an American would read an article in the Wall Street Journal called "The Truth About America" showing the appalling state of poverty & easily-treatable health problems that people have (but which aren't covered under their health plans) in the world's wealthiest country? Not likely at all.
 
  • #59
fourier jr said:
What are the chances that an American would read an article in the Wall Street Journal called "The Truth About America" showing the appalling state of poverty & easily-treatable health problems that people have (but which aren't covered under their health plans) in the world's wealthiest country? Not likely at all.

Not to be antagonistic, but what are these health problems that are easily treated and not covered by any health plans? Other than obesity which can be treated very effectively by ones own lifestyle.
 
  • #60
OmCheeto said:
The next car I was considering buying is made in China.
:smile:
gg buddy
 

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