Why the Lagrangian must involve derivative of field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the necessity of including derivatives of fields in the Lagrangian of quantum field theory (QFT). Participants explore the implications of this requirement in relation to wave propagation, coupling of field values, and the physical interpretation of fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the Lagrangian must involve derivatives, suggesting that it relates to the equations governing fermions and bosons, such as the Dirac and Klein-Gordon equations.
  • Another participant argues that without spatial derivatives, field values at neighboring points would be uncoupled, leading to a lack of wave propagation.
  • A claim is made that the presence of derivatives in the Lagrangian is linked to the inclusion of momenta in the Hamiltonian.
  • One participant challenges the idea by proposing a hypothetical action without time derivatives, questioning its validity and drawing a parallel to Newtonian systems.
  • A participant explains that derivatives provide the concept of "neighborhood" and "smoothness," using an example of an energy function that depends on the derivative of the field.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on whether "physical" equates to "smoothness," prompting a response that emphasizes the correlation of nearby field values.
  • It is noted that the tendency of nearby points to correlate is facilitated by the derivative terms in the Lagrangian, which is essential for the notion of space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the necessity and implications of including derivatives in the Lagrangian, indicating that multiple competing views remain and the discussion is not resolved.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the nature of fields and their derivatives are not explicitly stated, and the discussion does not resolve the mathematical implications of the proposed actions.

ndung200790
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Please teach me this:
Why the Lagrangian in QFT must involve derivative of field? Is it correct that because fermions and bosons(meaning all things) obey Dirac and Klein-Gordon equations,then the corresponding Lagrangians include the derivative of field?
(I know that the derivative has a important role in Gauge Local Symmetries(leading to comparator that reserve the Gauge Symmetry of the derivative))
Thank you very much for your kind helping.
 
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w/o spatial derivatives the field values at neighboring points would be uncoupled, there would be no waves, no propagation in space.
 
The Lagrangian contains derivatives, because the Hamiltonian contains momenta.
 
Well, try to derive the propagator of the field if there are no derivatives in the Lagrangian, as tom.stoer notes, and you'll see the necessity :)

It's a same kind of question as "why are there time derivatives in the Lagrangian of Newtonian systems"? What's wrong with an action like, say

L[x] = A x_i x^i + B (x_i x^i)^2 + \ldots

for coefficients A,B,...
 
In physical terms: derivatives of the field give the notion of "neighborhood" and, therefore, "smoothness".

Imagine that you have a field in the line, f(x), characterized by a certain energy function. A very simple energy function would be ∫|df/dx|2dx, which is zero for flat fields, and small for "smooth" fields. It's the same for Lagrangians.
 
So,''physical'' means ''smoothness''?
 
No, physical do not mean smooth. But if field values at nearby points did not have a tendency to "stay together", we would have no notion of space at all. The reason for which we have created the notion of "neighborhood" is because nearby points tend to be more correlated than far-away points. And this is achieved with the derivative terms in the lagrangian.
 

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