Why the renormalization group flow depends only the basic symmetry,but not Lagrangian

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between renormalization group (RG) flow, fixed points, and the role of symmetries in physical theories, particularly in the context of different Lagrangian forms. Participants explore whether physical laws are fundamentally dependent on symmetries and how this relates to various Lagrangian models, such as the Klein-Gordon and sigma models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks why RG flow and fixed points depend only on basic symmetries rather than the specific form of the Lagrangian, suggesting a general principle about physical laws being tied to symmetries.
  • Another participant questions whether the idea that physical laws depend solely on symmetry is empirical knowledge or theoretical understanding.
  • A different participant expresses uncertainty about the initial claim, proposing that the RG procedure generates all terms in the effective action consistent with the original action's symmetries, using phi^4 theory as an example.
  • This participant notes that while certain terms can be generated through the RG process, others, like a phi^7 term, cannot be produced from phi^4 interactions due to symmetry constraints.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not appear to reach a consensus, as there are differing views on the relationship between symmetries and the Lagrangian form, as well as the implications of RG flow.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the nature of the relationship between symmetries and physical laws, as well as the specifics of how RG flow operates across different Lagrangian forms.

ndung200790
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Please teach me this:
Why the renormalization group flow and the fix-point depends only on the basic symmetry but not on the Lagrangian form.In general speaking,the physics laws depend only the basic symmetries?By the way,the Klein-Gordon,linear sigma,nonlinear sigma Lagrangian flow to one another under the basic symmetry that is O(N) of scalar field?
Thank you very much in advance.
 
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Knowing the physics laws depend only on symmetry is empirical knowledge or ''theoretical'' knowing?
 


In the absence of a reply from more competent PFers- I'm not sure that what you've said is actually true. What I think is true is that the RG procedure generates all possible terms in the effective action that are consistent with the symmetries of the original action.

For example, consider phi^4 theory. By doing loop integrals, you can generate, in perturbation theory, 6-point correlation functions. In the Wilsonian approach, you've "integrated out" degrees of freedom above some momentum scale. These are no longer allowed to contribute to your loop integrals, so you have to add a phi^6 term to your effective lagrangian in order to keep the 6-point amplitude right. However, you can't generate a phi^7 term from phi^4 interactions- no matter how hard you try, you can't draw a Feynman diagram with 7 external lines, using only four-point vertices. Such a term would be inconsistent with the phi---->-(phi) symmetry of the original action, and is thus forbidden.
 


Thank you very much for the answer.
 

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