Why this macro thing having quantum behaving but other not?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the relationship between macroscopic phenomena and quantum behavior, particularly focusing on concepts such as temperature and heat in classical and quantum contexts. Participants examine whether classical notions can be applied in quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, and the conditions under which quantum coherence is maintained in macroscopic systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why certain macroscopic phenomena exhibit quantum behavior while others do not, particularly in relation to temperature and heat.
  • It is suggested that heavier systems tend to behave more classically, with examples like superconductors being treated classically for engineering purposes despite their quantum nature.
  • Participants propose that maintaining quantum coherence requires a small number of active degrees of freedom, which can be achieved by having either a small number of particles or a large number of particles in the same quantum state at low temperatures.
  • Questions arise regarding the definitions of temperature and heat in thermal quantum field theory (QFT) and whether classical notions can still apply in quantum mechanics.
  • Some participants argue that quantum statistical mechanics uses entropy and temperature in a way analogous to classical mechanics, but not equivalent.
  • There is a claim that classical notions of temperature can be used in quantum mechanics, as seen in Bose-Einstein and Fermi-Dirac distributions, and that quantum entropy is utilized in defining temperature in quantum field theory.
  • One participant asserts that there is no difference between classical and quantum temperature, as temperature does not become an operator upon quantization.
  • Questions are raised about why only extensive quantities are replaced by operators in quantum mechanics, with a response indicating that intensive quantities serve as parameters in state descriptions.
  • Participants discuss the nature of time as a parameter rather than a thermodynamic quantity, noting its intensive nature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the application of classical concepts in quantum contexts, particularly concerning temperature and heat. The discussion remains unresolved with no clear consensus on the relationship between classical and quantum descriptions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of temperature and heat, the unresolved nature of how quantum coherence is maintained in macroscopic systems, and the varying interpretations of the relationship between classical and quantum mechanics.

fxdung
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Why some macro phenomena have not quantum behaviour,but other phenomena have quantum behaviour?Why notions of temperature and heat are successfully in classical model and non-relativistic condition,despite they relate with energy and entropy that directly concern with quantum state ensemble?Whether do the notions of temperature and heat change when we consider effect of quantum and relativistic character of nature?What does control the self-cancelation quantum character in classical physics?
 
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fxdung said:
Why some macro phenomena have not quantum behaviour,but other phenomena have quantum behaviour?Why notions of temperature and heat are successfully in classical model and non-relativistic condition,despite they relate with energy and entropy that directly concern with quantum state ensemble?Whether do the notions of temperature and heat change when we consider effect of quantum and relativistic character of nature?What does control the self-cancelation quantum character in classical physics?
This is a very long story usually treated in books on statistical mechanics.

Usually, the heavier the more classical. A quantum system with weight 1 gram is already very classical. Even if it is a superconductor. Though superconductivity is a quantum effect, but so is the fact that solids are hard. Treated in a phenomenological way, both facts can be handled in a completely classical way for engineering purposes.
 
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To behave quantum mechanically, the crucial requirement is to keep quantum coherence for a long time. For that purpose, the system is better to have a small number of active degrees of freedom. There are two ways how can that be achieved:
- By containing a small number of particles. (atom, few photons, ...)
- By containing a large number of particles in the same quantum state. (superfluid, superconductor, laser beam, ...)
In the latter case, it helps a lot if the temperature is low.
 
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I hear that there is Thermal Quantum Field Theory,then what are the notions of temperature and heat in QFT and QM?Is that it bases on entropy so then on statistic quantum state ensemble or the classical notions of temperature and heat(basing on classical chaos motion of classical particles) still be able to use in QM and QFT?Does the book of QFT of Zinn-Justin say about this topic?
 
fxdung said:
I hear that there is Thermal Quantum Field Theory,then what are the notions of temperature and heat in QFT and QM?Is that it bases on entropy so then on statistic quantum state ensemble or the classical notions of temperature and heat(basing on classical chaos motion of classical particles) still be able to use in QM and QFT?Does the book of QFT of Zinn-Justin say about this topic?
Quantum statistical mechanics uses entropy and temperature in analogy to (but not equivalent with) classical mechanics.
I recommend the book on statisitcal physics by Linda Reichl. On a more advanced level the book by Calzetta and Hu on nonequilibrium QFT.
 
Then I think Thermodynamics is classically,universally describle theory of aggregate matter,so that we can use intact classical notion of temperature in Quantum Mechanics.E.g the Bose-Einstein and Fermi -Dirac quantum statistic distributions use classical temperature in their formula.And in Quantum Field (e.g electromagnetic radiation) Theory we use quantum entropy to construct the notion of temperature.Is that right?
 
fxdung said:
Then I think Thermodynamics is classically,universally describle theory of aggregate matter,so that we can use intact classical notion of temperature in Quantum Mechanics.E.g the Bose-Einstein and Fermi -Dirac quantum statistic distributions use classical temperature in their formula.And in Quantum Field (e.g electromagnetic radiation) Theory we use quantum entropy to construct the notion of temperature.Is that right?
There is no difference between classical temperature and quantum temperature, since upon quantization, temperature (just like time) does not become an operator.

In each case, the quantum version is obtained from the classical version by replacing the classical extensive quantities by their operator version and the phase space integral by a trace. See Chapter 8 of my online book.
 
Why are only extensive quantities to be replaced by operators but not for other quantities e.g intensive quantities?
 
fxdung said:
Why are only extensive quantities to be replaced by operators but not for other quantities e.g intensive quantities?
Because intensive quantities are just parameters in the description of the state.
This is immediate for parameters such as temperatures, which directly go into the expression for the density matrix (in a canoncal ensemble, say).

But it holds generally. For example, to go from an extensive quantity to the corresponding normalized intensive quantity one needs to divide by the mean mass or a similar expectation, and hence depends on the state.
 
  • #10
Time is a coordinate and not a thermodynamic quantity. But it is intensive, as having 1000 objects at time ##t## doesn't multiply the time by 1000.
 
  • #11
So,the state depend on time.Then time is a parameter.
 

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