Are quantum no-go theorems overrated/potentially counterproductive?

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  • #51
Jilang said:
I think there is some dissension on that
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0612153.pdf

See previous post.
I have always seen the logic of applying Bells Inequalities to the state (being a complete description of the system), but regard applying set theory to the state multiplied by its complex conjugate ( and claiming that in that way it rules out hidden variables) rather illogical.
Thanks for bringing this up as I was really hoping that someone with a lot of math background in this area could shed light on the validity of Khrennivok's idea (e.g. non-Kolmogorov probability model) of questioning Bell's assumptions on his famous Bell inequality.

Non-Kolmogorov probability models and modified Bell’s inequality
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0003017.pdf
 
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  • #52
Jilang said:
I think there is some dissension on that
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0612153.pdf

Not really. There are always a few dissenters, but this is a settled issue in the normal use of the word.
 
  • #53
bohm2 said:
Thanks for bringing this up as I was really hoping that someone with a lot of math background in this area could shed light on the validity of Khrennivok's idea (e.g. non-Kolmogorov probability model) of questioning Bell's assumptions on his famous Bell inequality.

Non-Kolmogorov probability models and modified Bell’s inequality
http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0003017.pdf

Bless you, but you need to keep hoping as I don't have a huge maths background. That said I don't think it takes a maths genius to see where the incompatibility lies. For example if you take the 60 degree, 120 degree spin type experiment that is often quoted as an example of the Bells inequality you will find there is no inequality type issue up until the point you start squaring the wave function. I could not say if it applies to all situations but on this one applying it to the amplitudes does not lead to a discrepancy. (The maths is easy -do try it!). The interesting thing about the article was when it mentioned game theory and how even classically you cannot apply Bells inequalities to both the system and the measuring system together. Since quite Quantum probabilities are defined as much by the measurement process as the state of the thing being measured it is perhaps not surprising that Bells inequalities are violated.
 
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  • #54
DrChinese said:
Not really. There are always a few dissenters, but this is a settled issue in the normal use of the word.

What would be the normal use of the word and who has settled this issue for good?
 
  • #55
Jilang said:
What would be the normal use of the word and who has settled this issue for good?

I settled it just now. :biggrin:

Around here, we follow "generally accepted" as a standard. So seriously, an arxiv entry won't do it and neither will 20 more (which I could give you as dissent). There are probably thousands of experiments being worked on this year around Bell, so I would say it has been hugely successful.

No one is stopping you from holding any opinion you like, but it is not appropriate to share your personal opinions as generally accepted on this forum.
 
  • #56
DrChinese said:
So seriously, an arxiv entry won't do it and neither will 20 more (which I could give you as dissent).
Can you provide any papers that critically discuss his contextual probability model. I've come across some stuff where he's discussing stuff with Fuchs but nothing substantial, even though, from my understanding, he has published a lot of stuff in peer-reviewed journals and organised international conferences with well-known researchers in QM/foundation in probability:

http://lnu.se/employee/andrei.khrennikov?l=en

But that means squat, if he is wrong about his views. So there's no misunderstanding, he doesn't question Bell's no-go theorem. Only its application.
 
  • #57
bohm2 said:
Can you provide any papers that critically discuss his contextual probability model. I've come across some stuff where he's discussing stuff with Fuchs but nothing substantial, even though, from my understanding, he has published a lot of stuff in peer-reviewed journals and organised international conferences with well-known researchers in QM/foundation in probability:

http://lnu.se/employee/andrei.khrennikov?l=en

But that means squat, if he is wrong about his views. So there's no misunderstanding, he doesn't question Bell's no-go theorem. Only its application.

Sorry, about all I have on him is the "Vaxjo Interpretation of Wave Function" stuff which you already have. A lot of people just let some of these type assertions go without bothering to reign things in.

There is a lot of semantic debate in this area, and yet the upshot of the no-go theorems is that people don't look for local hidden variables in the usual spots anymore. So to me, that makes no-go's useful. You have to be creative just to grab a toehold anywhere. :smile:
 
  • #58
The Fuchs piece I cam across is below. He seems to agree with Khrennikov on some points but doesn't think Khrennikov accomplishes what he wants to:
The way I view the problem presently is that, indeed, quantum theory is a theory of contextual probabilities. This much we agree on: within each context, quantum probabilities are nothing more than standard Kolmogorovian probabilities. But the contexts are set by the structure of the Positive Operator-Valued Measures: one experimental context, one POVM. The glue that pastes the POVMs together into a unified Hilbert space is Gleason’s “noncontextuality assumption”: where two POVMs overlap, the probability assignments for those outcomes must not depend upon the context. Putting those two ideas together, one derives the structure of the quantum state. The quantum state (uniquely) specifies a compendium of probabilities, one for each context. And thus there are transformation rules for deriving probabilities in one context from another. This has the flavor of your program. But getting to that starting point from more general considerations—as you would like to do (I think)—is the challenge I haven’t yet seen fulfilled.
The Anti-Vaxjo Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics
http://perimeterinstitute.ca/personal/cfuchs/VaxjinationQPH.pdf
 
  • #59
Here's another recent no-go theorem based on a critical look at one of the assumptions ("preparation independence") of PBR theorem and is a follow-up paper to 2 previous papers by Schlosshauer and Fine:
Building on the Pusey–Barrett–Rudolph theorem, we derive a no-go theorem for a vast class of deterministic hidden-variables theories, including those consistent on their targeted domain. The strength of this result throws doubt on seemingly natural assumptions (like the “preparation independence” of the Pusey–Barrett–Rudolph theorem) about how “real states” of subsystems compose for joint systems in nonentangled states. This points to constraints in modeling tensor-product states, similar to constraints demonstrated for more complex states by the Bell and Bell–Kochen–Specker theorems.
A no-go theorem for the composition of quantum systems
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1306.5805v2.pdf

I'm still having difficulty understanding the merits of this criticism of the PBR assumption. It seems to me that if this criticism is valid for the PBR theorem, then one can also question the assumptions of Bell's theorem; that is, a good case can be made that this is really in line with Khrennikov/Pitovsky/Accardi/Kupczynski/Nieuwenhuizen/Hess/Philipp arguments where one cannot assume that statistical data that are obtained in different experiments should be described by a single Kolmogorov probability space:
Our point will be that Bell went wrong even before the issue of these loopholes has to be addressed, because of the contextuality loophole, that cannot be closed...In his opening address of the 2008 Växjö conference Foundations of Probability and Physics , Andrei Khrennikov took the position that violations of Bell inequalities occur in Nature, but do not rule out local realism, due to lack of contextuality: the measurements needed to test Bell inequalities (BI) such as the BCHSH inequality cannot be performed simultaneously . Therefore Kolmogorian probability theory starts and ends with having different probability spaces, and Bell inequality violation (BIV) just proves that there cannot be a reduction to one common probability space. This finally implies that no conclusion can be drawn on local realism, since incompatible information cannot be used to draw any conclusion.
Where Bell Went Wrong
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0812.3058.pdf
 
  • #60
I think that everyone has had a chance to state their preferred interpretation by now.
 

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