Why was the early universe opaque?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the opacity of the early universe, particularly during the period before recombination when subatomic particles were not yet bound into atoms. Participants explore the reasons behind the inability of photons to pass through the free particles and the transition to transparency as hydrogen atoms formed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that before recombination, subatomic particles were free and could scatter photons, leading to opacity.
  • Another participant explains that Thomson scattering requires free charged particles, which are abundant before recombination but not after atoms form.
  • A participant questions why photons cannot scatter off individual electrons or protons in neutral atoms, suggesting a possible misunderstanding of particle interactions.
  • One reply introduces quantum mechanics, explaining that bound electrons in atoms can only absorb photons of specific energies, limiting interactions with the cosmic microwave background (CMB).
  • A metaphorical explanation compares photons to a steak and electrons to a dog, illustrating the transition from a state of interaction to one of freedom for photons as atoms form.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the interaction of photons with charged particles and the implications of quantum mechanics. There is no consensus on the nuances of photon scattering and energy absorption in the context of atomic structure.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference quantum mechanics and energy states of electrons, indicating a reliance on specific definitions and concepts that may not be universally understood. The discussion remains open to interpretation regarding the interactions of photons with particles in different states.

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I just learned from an Astronomy course that when the sub atomic particles were not bound together, they were moving around freely, but after the universe expanded and cooled, they began to combine to form Hydrogen atoms. Now, before this combination period, the photons couldn't pass through those particles, but after they did, they could. What I don't understand is why? I've read the introductory part here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recombination_(cosmology), but I couldn't understand much. Any help?
 
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Did you follow the link in the wiki article to the description of Thomson scattering ? - that's the physical process responsible. You need free electrons in abundance.
 
Bandersnatch said:
Did you follow the link in the wiki article to the description of Thomson scattering ? - that's the physical process responsible. You need free electrons in abundance.
I did and that's my question. How could the particles scatter the EM waves earlier, but not after they combined to form Hydrogen atoms?
 
Because you need a free charged particle for a photon to scatter off and atoms are electrically neutral.
 
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Bandersnatch said:
Because you need a free charged particle for a photon to scatter off and atoms are electrically neutral.
Ok, that makes sense, but I can even picture a photon coming in contact with just the electron of the atom or just the proton. Then wouldn't it be possible for that photon to be scattered again? Because when the photon will strike either the electron or the proton, it wouldn't really strike the neutral atom, it'll strike only either of those two particles.
 
No one before 100 years ago could have answered your question either-- it is called quantum mechanics. It means that when electrons are bound in an atom, they are only allowed to have discrete (special) energies, so they cannot absorb most of the photons present because those photons don't have the right energy. Since most of the atoms are in the "ground state", it means the electrons can only interact with special ultraviolet energies, yet most of the CMB was in the visible or redder, so there is very little interaction between them. For a classical analog, you can imagine that each bound electron is attached, in effect, to a tight spring, so it is very difficult to make them oscillate slowly, you can only make them oscillate rapidly, near the "resonant frequency" of the spring.
 
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Ken G said:
It means that when electrons are bound in an atom, they are only allowed to have discrete (special) energies, so they cannot absorb most of the photons present because those photons don't have the right energy. Since most of the atoms are in the "ground state", it means the electrons can only interact with special ultraviolet energies, yet most of the CMB was in the visible or redder, so there is very little interaction between them.
That's perfect. Thank you so much! :)
 
A photon is like a steak and an electron is like a dog. While the electrons moved freely through the universe because it was too hot for atoms to form, they constantly interacted with the photons, making it opaque. When the temperature hit a specific point, the protons in the universe almost all at once put their electrons on leashes and photons could be free. That's the Cosmic Microwave Background.
 

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