Why you should like my perspective

  • Thread starter Thread starter Doctordick
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Perspective
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on a proposed geometric representation of physical phenomena that claims to address issues of representation rather than physical validity, challenging Einstein's established views. The author argues that their model, which utilizes a Euclidean metric with four spatial axes, offers superior visualization and symmetry compared to Einstein's framework. Key advantages include treating time as a parameter of motion, allowing for a broader range of possible trajectories, and simplifying the integration of quantum mechanics with general relativity. The author also critiques Einstein's perspective for being incomplete and for yielding solutions that have never been observed, suggesting that their approach could uncover significant insights. Overall, the discussion invites critique and further exploration of this alternative representation in physics.
  • #31
Antonio Lao said:
Dick,

The timelike force is related to the magnetic force and the spacelike force is related to the electric force. These forces exist prior to the definition of what is an electric charge? When charge is defined then electric and magnetic properties are also defined. Properties such as the permeability and permittivity of matter and vacuum.
Again, I am afraid these are just vague allusions to definition. You seem to be basing your discussion on popular notions of physics and not on succinct examinable definitions. Physics is not a simple subject. When you follow something like Dr. Feynman's lectures, you are hearing vague generalizations; however, behind those vague generalizations are very specific thoughts.

The problem is that the important specific thoughts in physics are, for the most part, only communicable with mathematics. Just as maps are only meaningful when you can tell the difference between various lines and icons. In physics, you need to be able to put your thoughts into well defined mathematical expressions before you can talk about relations between those ideas.

I think you are in way over your head. You need to learn basic physics before going off into flights of fancy. I notice that you have not responded to my question about your ability to understand my post on partial derivatives and the validity of the resultant expressions given in post #4:

<br /> \sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i \kappa_x \vec{\Psi}\,\,,\,\,\sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial\tau_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i\kappa_{\tau}\vec{\Psi}\,\,and\,\,\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, im\vec{\Psi}

If you cannot understand that mathematical step, you cannot understand the theoretical underpinnings of modern physics.

Is there anyone out there reading this forum who can help me with this?

Have fun -- Dick
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Antonio Lao said:
The timelike force is related to the magnetic force and the spacelike force is related to the electric force. These forces exist prior to the definition of what is an electric charge? When charge is defined then electric and magnetic properties are also defined. Properties such as the permeability and permittivity of matter and vacuum.


Interesting explanation Antonio. It seems that elctromagnetism is spacelike and gravitation is timelike.
 
  • #33
Doctordick said:
Derivation of Doctor Dicks Fundamental Equation -- Part II

There exist a couple of subtle aspects of the model so far described. Of very great significance is the fact that the goal was to create a model which will model any explanation of A obtained from C. The specific mapping of the labels for the elements of C are part of the model and not a given aspect of the phenomena to be modeled: i.e., not at all part of A[/color]. If follows that the \vec{\Psi}(\vec{x},t) yielded by the model cannot be a function of that mapping procedure: i.e., all possible mappings must end up yielding exactly the same probability algorithm (the \vec{\Psi}(\vec{x},t) must yield results consistent with the actual distributions of the elements of B in C independent of the chosen mappings). This fact can be used to prove that \vec{\Psi} must satisfy some very simple partial differential relations.

The process yields three orthogonal differential constraints on \vec{\Psi} in the three dimensional representational space defined by the x, \tau and t axes of the model (if you need clarification on this issue, let me know).

<br /> \sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i \kappa_x \vec{\Psi}\,\,,\,\,\sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial\tau_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i\kappa_{\tau}\vec{\Psi}\,\,and\,\,\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, im\vec{\Psi}

The final aspect of the model is to actually design a universal rule which is capable of yielding the distributions of the elements of B in C for every possibility. In this regard, it is quite easy to prove that, for any B (any distribution of points in the (x,\tau) plane) there exists a corresponding set D (a second distribution of points in the (x,\tau) plane), which, under the simple constraint that no two points can be the same, will constrain the distribution of B in C to exactly that distribution, no matter what that distribution might be (if you need clarification on this issue, let me know). The constraint that no two points can be the same is easily enforced by requiring:

<br /> F \, = \, \sum_{i\not= j}\delta (\vec{x_i}-{\vec{x_j}})\, =\, 0.

where \vec{x_k} is defined to be the vector in the x, \tau space defined by (x_k,\tau_k) and \delta represents the Dirac delta function. This express constraint on the elements of B can be converted into an express constraint on \vec{\Psi} by noting that the proper constraint on \vec{\Psi} is that that \vec{\Psi} must vanish whenever the above constraint on the elements is invalid; i.e., when F is not equal to zero, \vec{\Psi} must be zero. Thus the product of the two must always be zero and the correct constraint on \vec{\Psi} is given by:

<br /> \sum_{i\not= j}\delta (\vec{x_i}-{\vec{x_j}}) \vec{\Psi}\, =\, 0.

These four independent constraints on \vec{\Psi} may be expressed in a very succinct form through the use of some very simple well known mathematical tricks.

If one defines a set of anti commuting matrices as follows:

[\alpha_{ix}\, , \,\alpha_{jx}]\,\,{\equiv}\,\,\alpha_{ix}\alpha_{jx} \, + \, \alpha_{jx}\alpha_{ix}\,=\,\delta_{ij}

[\alpha_{i\tau}\, , \,\alpha_{j\tau}]\,=\,\delta_{ij}

[\beta_{ij}\, , \, \beta_{kl}] \, = \, \delta_{ik} \delta_{jk}

[\alpha_{ix}\, , \, \beta_{kl}] \, = \, [\alpha_{i\tau}\, , \, \beta_{kl}]\, = 0\, ,\, \, \mbox{ where } \,\, \delta_{ij}\, = \,\left\{ \begin{array}{ll}<br /> 0 &amp; \mbox{if i\noy=j}\\<br /> 1 &amp; \mbox{if i=j}.\end{array} \right. <br />​
and defines two expressions ( \vec{\alpha_i} = \alpha_{ix}\hat{x} + \alpha_{i\tau}\hat{\tau} and \vec{\nabla_i} \,=\,\frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\hat{x}\,+\,\frac{\partial}{\partial\tau_i}\hat{\tau} ), a small shift in perspective will allow the four constraints on \vec{\Psi} to be written in a single equation as follows:

<br /> \left\{\sum_i\vec{\alpha_i}\\,\dot\,\vec{\nabla_i}\,+\,<br /> \sum_{i\not=j}\beta_{ij}\delta(\vec{x_i}\,-{\vec{x_j}})\right\}<br /> \vec{\Psi}\,\,=\,\,K\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=<br /> \,iKm\vec{\Psi}

constrained by the requirement that

<br /> \sum_i\vec{\alpha_i}\,\vec{\Psi}\,=\,\sum_{i\not=j}\bata_{ij}\,\vec{\Psi}\,<br /> =\,0.

It follows that all explanations of anything may be directly modeled by a set of points in an (x,\tau) space moving through a t dimension and required to obey the fundamental equation given above. The probability of any particular set of elements in B being given by

<br /> P(\vec{x},t) = \vec{\Psi}^{\dagger}(\vec{x},t)\cdot\vec{\Psi}(\vec{x},t)dv<br />

And I have thus successfully created a model of all possible explanations of A consistent with C. The fact that no constraints of any kind were placed on A implies the solution has consequences of great significance to every science under study.

If anyone out there has the gray matter to follow the derivation and is interested in discussing the issues it raises, I am ready to discuss the following issues:

1. Possible errors in my derivation (I will have to leave finding them to you as I am not aware of any errors).
2. How to obtain solutions to the equation and the solutions that I have found.
3. The philosophical implications as to what impact the discovery has on one's mental image of reality.
4. Interpretation of the equation: just what the various parts of the derivation mean.

A spacetime manifold could have a probability in which it embeds a three dimensional, simply connected manifold, that has locally Euclidean metric h_ab.
The simply connected manifold will divide into M^+ and M^- .

It becomes factorized as the product of psi^+ and psi^-

Partial derivatives construct the momentum constraints.
 
  • #34
Doctordick said:
If anyone out there has the gray matter to follow the derivation and is interested in discussing the issues it raises, I am ready to discuss the following issues:

1. Possible errors in my derivation (I will have to leave finding them to you as I am not aware of any errors).
2. How to obtain solutions to the equation and the solutions that I have found.
3. The philosophical implications as to what impact the discovery has on one's mental image of reality.
4. Interpretation of the equation: just what the various parts of the derivation mean.
You seem to have neglected following the derivation as a prerequisite to a serious discussion. I have some strong suspicions that you did not follow the deduction as, if you had, I think you would have understood why the discussion topics are listed in the order given. You appear to be jumping to #4 without even considering what comes before.
Russell E. Rierson said:
A spacetime manifold could have a probability in which it embeds a three dimensional, simply connected manifold, that has locally Euclidean metric h_ab.
The simply connected manifold will divide into M^+ and M^- .

It becomes factorized as the product of psi^+ and psi^-

Partial derivatives construct the momentum constraints.
What are you trying to say here? Is this supposed to indicate to me that you understood what I wrote down? I have not mentioned a "spacetime manifold" and you have not defined what you mean by the term "spacetime manifold". I have not brought up or defined any concept referred to as "connected" nor have you! Just what does the symbol M^+ refer to and/or the symbol M^-.

It appears to me that you do not understand the difference between fact and theory. Mathematics is a tool! A very valuable tool when it comes to theory development. You, russ_waters and many others on this forum seem to think that I am presenting a theory. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I am setting before you are facts. What I would like you to do is to understand these facts. If you could see them, we could have something to talk about.

I feel a strong kinship with Galileo Galilei. Around 1609 his use of the telescope (which, by the way, he didn't invent) opened his eyes to facts not known to those around him. Some seven years later, he brought down the churches wrath when he attacked the followers of Aristotle, the scientific god of his era. Though he worked very hard to get the church to look through his telescope, and see what he saw, he failed utterly. He died over twenty five years later, a convicted heretic. He was lucky as what he was saying did not die with him and today we enjoy the consequences of his thoughts.

My telescope is advanced mathematics. I have pointed it in a direction alien to the practitioners of that field and seen things no one else has seen. I have also incurred the wrath of the academy by arguing against the followers of Einstein, the scientific god of our era. Though I have worked hard to get the academy to look through my telescope, I have also utterly failed. All I get is reasons why what I see cannot possibly be so; exactly the same reason the church wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope.

Please examine what I have put forth on this forum. I haven't presented any theories; I have pointed out facts. Facts you will see if you follow my mathematics. But, if you cannot follow the mathematics, then you can no more see those facts than those who refuse to look. Go look! Examine the truth of the mathematical deduction I have set down. Either it is correct or it is in error. If you don't understand it, tell me what you do not understand and I will do my best to clarify it.

What I have proved is that my "fundamental equation" is true for any collections of theoretical expectations one might have and has utterly nothing to do with the theory behind those expectations or the interpretation of the concepts central to that theory. It is a tool to look at what is reasonable and what is unreasonable regarding probable expectations. How does one look at the universe through my telescope? One looks at the solutions to my fundamental equation and the relations which those solutions require. Without the solutions you have nothing to look at and nothing to argue about.

One of the problems endemic to this forum is that everyone seems to think that they can ignore the facts while they think about their esoteric theories. I suspect most all the mentors know that most every theory put forth here is easily destroyed by the simple expedient of looking at the facts. The problem is that lacking education, most of the posters are simply ignorant of the facts.

Einstein's theories of relativity, both special and general, are "theories", not facts (that is why they are called theories). But the facts that defend his theories are facts. If you are to come up with a theory which is to be seen as reasonable, then you must come up with a specific detailed procedure for deducing exactly the observed facts from that theory. It must agree with the known facts! And it must be consistent with all facts known: i.e., it must not require ignoring any specific facts.[/color] And, in addition, you better point out a flaw in the theory you are trying to replace!

This is why very few professional physicists come up with new theories! It is not a trivial endeavor.

In order to think about theories, you must first know and understand the facts. Failure to understand this is exactly the reason the "Theory Development" forum is considered "crackpots are us" heaven. You need to have an education as to what the facts are and popular generalizations of hard scientific results do not qualify as facts even if they are promulgated by recognized authorities!

Have fun but think about it -- Dick
 
  • #35
Dick,

For my lack of mathematical knowledge, I will still willing to respond to your math expressions.

1. The sum of all partial derivatives of a certain function with respect to 1-dim space is proportional to the imaginary part of this same function.

2. The sum of all partial derivatives of a certain function with respect to timelike independent variable is proportional to the imaginary part of this same function.

3. the partial with respect to time of this function is proportional to the imaginary part of same function.

Now to say what I intended to do as far as the use of math is concerned are the following:

1. I am getting rid of all uses of derivative (partial or exact). These were partly Newton's doing. We are now beyond that. The partial derivative is a way of dealing with continuous change of continuous functions such as a wave function. All wave functions depend on two keys properties, the wavelength and the frequency. The wavelength is a vector. The frequency is a scalar and it is the inversely proportional of time. I have more to say here but will defer for the time being.

2. I am getting rid of the numeral "zero" in the math I'm using. I am using only Hadamard matrices with elements consist of 1 and -1.

3. There are functions that can only be added together. I call them Hamiltonian functions. To me, the true Hamiltonian is a function that gives the square of energy. Only Hamiltonian possesses a quantum.

4. There are functions that can only be subtracted. I call them Lagrangian functions. These do not have a quantum.

More to say on all of these working principles of my research.
 
  • #36
Antonio Lao said:
For my lack of mathematical knowledge, I will still willing to respond to your math expressions.
The responses are rather worthless unless the purpose is to increase your mathematical knowledge!
Antonio Lao said:
1. The sum of all partial derivatives of a certain function with respect to 1-dim space is proportional to the imaginary part of this same function.
This is a mathematically meaningless statement. There is no such thing as a partial derivative with respect to a one dimensional space! Derivatives are taken with respect to variables and space is not a variable, it is range of variables defined by a coordinate system.
Antonio Lao said:
2. The sum of all partial derivatives of a certain function with respect to timelike independent variable is proportional to the imaginary part of this same function.
There is nothing in this derivation to suggest any relationship between \tau_i and t. Furthermore, multiplying a function by i does not extract the imaginary part of that function (this comment goes to both comment #1, #2 and #3).
Antonio Lao said:
3. the partial with respect to time of this function is proportional to the imaginary part of same function.
Again, there is nothing in this derivation (except the use of the symbol t) which says t has any relation to time.
Antonio Lao said:
Now to say what I intended to do as far as the use of math is concerned are the following:

1. I am getting rid of all uses of derivative (partial or exact).
It would be much better if you would rather study the uses of these concepts.
Antonio Lao said:
These were partly Newton's doing. We are now beyond that.
If you are beyond that, then I take it to mean you have no interest in understanding mathematics.
Antonio Lao said:
The partial derivative is a way of dealing with continuous change of continuous functions such as a wave function. All wave functions depend on two keys properties, the wavelength and the frequency.
You display your ignorance of wave functions. Any competent physicist can show you wave functions which have neither a wavelength nor a frequency. These are properties of momentum quantized and energy quantized wave functions only.
Antonio Lao said:
The wavelength is a vector.
Wavelength is not a vector, it is a measure of the distance between repetitions of a specific phase of the wave function.
Antonio Lao said:
The frequency is a scalar and it is the inversely proportional of time. I have more to say here but will defer for the time being.
Frequency is not inversely proportional to time (of time is a meaningless phrase). I am sorry you have more to say as you have already said enough to stop a competent physicist from thinking listening to you will serve any purpose.
Antonio Lao said:
2. I am getting rid of the numeral "zero" in the math I'm using. I am using only Hadamard matrices with elements consist of 1 and -1.
And why should I concern myself with these "Hadamard" matrices?
Antonio Lao said:
3. There are functions that can only be added together. I call them Hamiltonian functions. To me, the true Hamiltonian is a function that gives the square of energy. Only Hamiltonian possesses a quantum.
The word "Hamiltonian" already has a very specific meaning derived from the work of that physicist. I would suggest you find yourself a new name for whatever it is that you want to talk about.
Antonio Lao said:
4. There are functions that can only be subtracted. I call them Lagrangian functions. These do not have a quantum.
You don't seem to have any comprehension of the meaning of the word "function". You need to study mathematics; please!
Antonio Lao said:
More to say on all of these working principles of my research.
Please don't say it to me. I hold it in the same category I would place someone if they told me the "working principles" of their research" was to smoke pot.

If you want to talk to me, you need to spend some effort learning mathematics. If you continue to post such drivel, you leave me no option but to ignore you.

Have fun -- Dick
 
  • #37
Doctordick said:
...appear to be jumping to #4 without even considering what comes before.

What are you trying to say here? Is this supposed to indicate to me that you understood what I wrote down? I have not mentioned a "spacetime manifold" and you have not defined what you mean by the term "spacetime manifold". I have not brought up or defined any concept referred to as "connected" nor have you! Just what does the symbol M^+ refer to and/or the symbol M^-.

It appears to me that you do not understand the difference between fact and theory.

[...]

In order to think about theories, you must first know and understand the facts.

Failure to understand this is exactly the reason the "Theory Development" forum is considered "crackpots are us" heaven.

You need to have an education as to what the facts are and popular generalizations of hard scientific results do not qualify as facts even if they are promulgated by recognized authorities!

Have fun but think about it -- Dick


"A little learning is a dangerous thing;Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."

--Alexander Pope


I get the impression that you are hoping someone will find a flaw in your derivation?
 
  • #38
Dick,

The velocity of a wave (EM waves) is the product of its wavelength and frequency. My question is what is the physical meaning when the frequency is exactly 1? 1 cycle per second. Does this mean that the period is 1? Does this wave move? It must! The wavelength is 186,000 miles. Can these waves of 1 frequency be added in phase to give infinite magnitude? Or added out of phase to give zero amplitude?
 
  • #39

Dr. D:
The experimenter will throw the clock across the room where upon it is smashed to smithereens.

Now, let us examine that experiment from a number of different frames of reference. I make the claim that all observers (totally independent of their frame of reference) will find the reading on that clock at the moment it leaves the experimenters hand will have a specific value. They will all agree as to what that reading was and the reading has absolutely nothing to do with their frame of reference.

I further make the claim that all observers will find the reading on that clock at the moment it is smashed to smithereens will also have a specific value. And once again, they will all agree as to what that reading was. Once again, that reading has absolutely nothing to do with their frame of reference.

In fact, they will all observe that clock to be a measuring device which starts with some reading and terminates with a second reading, having progressed through all the intermediate readings between the two. The only differences they will claim have to do with the coordinates describing the event in their personal frames of reference. In particular, the length of time required for the event to occur will vary from frame to frame. What is important here is that the reading on the clock has absolutely nothing to do with the "time" used in the description of the experiment in anyone's frame of reference!

That fact must be true as the functioning of the clock is determined by physical laws and those physical laws are (from the axioms of relativity itself) independent of your frame of reference! The functioning of that "ideal" clock cannot possibly be a function of your frame of reference!

The experimenter throws the clock across the room, and, when it is smashed, it has a specific reading. A ray of light travels from the clock to the experimenters with velocity c.

E <----- C

What the experimenters see will not be the actual time of the clock. It will be readings of a past moment.
What the clock is actually doing from the various experimenter's frames of reference is uncertain.


Dr.D:
What are you trying to say here? Is this supposed to indicate to me that you understood what I wrote down? I have not mentioned a "spacetime manifold" and you have not defined what you mean by the term "spacetime manifold". I have not brought up or defined any concept referred to as "connected" nor have you! Just what does the symbol M^+ refer to and/or the symbol M^-.

An n-dimensional manifold is a topological space M equipped with charts mapped onto the real numbers , with smooth transition functions.
The manifold is simply connected if it consists of one piece and doesn't have any circle-shaped "holes" or "handles". For example, a doughnut is not simply connected, but a ball is simply connected. A circle is not simply connected but a disk and a line are.

Take the path integral over all metrics h on M. Stephen Hawking derived the wavefunction of the universe as a path integral, for the functions of classical configuration space: psi(q) = integral exp(-S(g)/hbar) dg

exp is the base of the natural logarithm "e" raised to a power. The power in this case, is the quantity -S(g)/hbar, where S(g) is the Einstein Hilbert action.

The Lagrangian, which is the difference of kinetic and potential
energies, has a formulation in general relativity:

Lagrangian = R vol

R is the Ricci scalar curvature of the metric g, derived by contracting the Ricci tensor and "vol" is the volume form associated to g. The Einstein Hilbert action then becomes:

S(g) = integral R vol

The surface of M can be divided into M^+ and M^-. The probability for the manifold to have a metric h, are the wave functions psi^+ and psi^- . Hawking says that if the two wave functions are equal the superscripts may be dropped.
 
  • #40
The first inconsistency in your theory is in the non-definition of the set A. You insist that there are no constraints on A (or B and C) yet that there must be an injection to the real numbers, thus A must have a cardinality less than or equal to the continuum. You also dont' define a proper probabilty measure, as it happens.
 
  • #41
Russell E. Rierson said:
The experimenter throws the clock across the room, and, when it is smashed, it has a specific reading. A ray of light travels from the clock to the experimenters with velocity c.

E <----- C

What the experimenters see will not be the actual time of the clock. It will be readings of a past moment.
What the clock is actually doing from the various experimenter's frames of reference is uncertain.
What the clock is doing as seen from the perspective of modern physics as it is taught is not ambiguous at all.

With regard to this and the rest of your post, from my perspective, you are freely mixing three completely different issues: 1) the clock issue which was nothing more than an attempt to show that the readings on a clock have nothing to do with the experimenters frame of reference; 2) Modern physics which has nothing to do with the derivation I am showing you; and 3) the central issue of this thread which has to do with a very specific mathematical deduction which you really haven't discussed at all.

matt grime said:
The first inconsistency in your theory is in the non-definition of the set A. You insist that there are no constraints on A (or B and C) yet that there must be an injection to the real numbers, thus A must have a cardinality less than or equal to the continuum. You also dont' define a proper probabilty measure, as it happens.
My first and foremost complaint about your criticism is that I am not at all putting forward a theory of any kind. I am doing nothing except pointing out the fact that a very specific mathematical deduction exists. Oh yes, I do believe that the deduction has a great impact on our understanding of reality but that issue must be laid aside until you understand the deduction and its consequences.

That being said, let me respond to your express difficulties. I said that A was completely undefined. Are you saying that the statement that I can refer to an element of A implies A must have a cardinality less than or equal to the continuum? Not in any theory of sets I have seen! The only set which contains no elements which can be referred to contains no elements at all and the empty set is easily accommodated here.

I did not say there were no constraints on B and C. I made some very specific constraints on them: a specific set B is a finite collection of elements from A and C is a finite collection of sets B. Now, if you are referring to my solution to sub problem number 2, I will admit that the elements of A represented in C must have a cardinality less than or equal to the continuum but that cannot be taken to prove that there exists any specific element in A which cannot appear in C. That is the essense of the power of infinity. The problem was the issue of an existence of a C containing elements not in the basis on which our \vec{\Psi} was built. No case involving a non-finite C is actually of any significance at all.

And yes, it is true that I do not define a proper probability measure at all. The definition is not necessary as I do not use it. I leave that issue entirely open except for one very specific fact: it is a number between zero and one (including the end points). Now, if you can define a "proper measure of probability" which cannot be represented by a number in that range, then it might be possible you have something to complain about. I would like to see your definition and a little evidence that it would be acceptable to the scientific community (I put that into prevent you from defining probability measure to be the number of fuzzy white balls in your pocket!).

Come on people, isn't there anybody out there who can come up with a serious criticism? If you can't than you should accept the derivation as valid or, at the vary least, be a little interested in the consequences.

Does anyone out there have any idea how to recover the constraints

<br /> \sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i \kappa_x \vec{\Psi}\,\,,\,\,\sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial\tau_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i\kappa_{\tau}\vec{\Psi}\,\,and\,\,\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, im\vec{\Psi}

from the final equation

<br /> \left\{\sum_i\vec{\alpha_i}\\,\dot\,\vec{\nabla_i}\,+\,<br /> \sum_{i\not=j}\beta_{ij}\delta(\vec{x_i}\,-{\vec{x_j}})\right\}<br /> \vec{\Psi}\,\,=\,\,K\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=<br /> \,iKm\vec{\Psi}

under the constraints I placed on it?

It results in an interesting insight. I would explain it to you but I would really like to find someone who is capable of following the math presented here.

If you can't follow the math, I don't see what we are talking about-- Dick
 
  • #42
Doctordick said:
Does anyone out there have any idea how to recover the constraints


<br /> \sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial x_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i \kappa_x \vec{\Psi}\,\,,\,\,\sum_i^n \frac{\partial}{\partial\tau_i}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, i\kappa_{\tau}\vec{\Psi}\,\,and\,\,\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=\, im\vec{\Psi}

from the final equation

<br /> \left\{\sum_i\vec{\alpha_i}\\,\dot\,\vec{\nabla_i}\,+\,<br /> \sum_{i\not=j}\beta_{ij}\delta(\vec{x_i}\,-{\vec{x_j}})\right\}<br /> \vec{\Psi}\,\,=\,\,K\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\vec{\Psi}\,=<br /> \,iKm\vec{\Psi}

under the constraints I placed on it?

It results in an interesting insight. I would explain it to you but I would really like to find someone who is capable of following the math presented here.

Why is your approach better than Feynman's path integral?
 
  • #43
Russell E. Rierson said:
Why is your approach better than Feynman's path integral?
My approach to what? You simply have no idea of what I am doing do you?
 
  • #44
Doctordick said:
My approach to what? You simply have no idea of what I am doing do you?

When one lobs a clock at the wall, it has a trajectory, with position and momentum along a path. Respectfully, I ask, are you describing trajectories & dynamics ...or not?

If not, then what predictions are to be made from it[your approach]?

What are "you" doing? ..."You" are summing partial derivatives.
 
  • #45
Russell E. Rierson said:
When one lobs a clock at the wall, it has a trajectory, with position and momentum along a path. Respectfully, I ask, are you describing trajectories & dynamics ...or not?
As I have mentioned several times, the only purpose of that post was to make people think about the fact that the clock readings had absolutely nothing to do with the frame of reference: i.e., clocks do not measure time! I admit the approach was an absolute failure! That fact is so totaly blocked from your view that you cannot comprehend that there is a problem there.
Russell E. Rierson said:
If not, then what predictions are to be made from it[your approach]?
Common modern experimental physics!
Russell E. Rierson said:
What are "you" doing? ..."You" are summing partial derivatives.
Yes! But do you understand why? As I implied earlier, I have no idea as to how to reach you.
 
  • #46
Doctordick said:
As I have mentioned several times, the only purpose of that post was to make people think about the fact that the clock readings had absolutely nothing to do with the frame of reference: i.e., clocks do not measure time! I admit the approach was an absolute failure! That fact is so totaly blocked from your view that you cannot comprehend that there is a problem there.

There seems to be a failure to communicate then :eek:

Doctordick said:
Yes! But do you understand why? As I implied earlier, I have no idea as to how to reach you.


Doctor D, that probably means that you don't fully understand your own "approach".

If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it.

You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.


It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid.
---Einstein
 
  • #47
Dr. D, I completely agree with the following statements from your web page:



Dr. D:

To a certain extent we owe some of the confusion surrounding relativity to the scientists who, in the face of this problem, define "simultaneous" in a manner which they felt was the most obvious: they define it in a manner which is consistent with the standard Newtonian space time diagram. We can't really fault them as such an attack at least allows relativistic phenomena to reduce to the Newtonian result when the finite speed of light becomes inconsequential. However, they shortchange the customer when they hold that such is the only possible definition of "simultaneity".

This is obviously true, what are you trying to say then? that Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries are two different, yet, equivalent ways of explaining nature?

http://www.cord.edu/dept/physics/credo/etrain.html


Special Relativity and Simultaneity

The special theory of relativity is based on two postulates:

1. No test of the laws of physics provides any way to distinguish one inertial reference frame from another. (Any frame moving at constant velocity is as good as any other as far as the laws of physics are concerned.)

2. The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant independent of the motion of the source or observer.

If we accept these two statements as true we must give up our ideas about the constancy of time and space as independent quantities. This is most obvious when looking at "simultaneous" events. In relativity theory the determination of simultaneity is frame dependent. In other words, two events that are simultaneous in one frame are not simultaneous in any other inertial frame.


 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #48
Russell,

I have a solution to a mathematical equation with far reaching implications. I do not believe you have the wherewithal to follow the solution so there is no point to continuing this discourse. I have no disagreement with either of the quotes you choose to post above! They just have no bearing on understanding this thread! You clearly have no interest in what I am talking about at all. Now that doesn't bother me; you are in good company.

Have fun -- Dick
 
  • #49
Doctordick said:
Russell,

You clearly have no interest in what I am talking about at all. Now that doesn't bother me; you are in good company.

Have fun -- Dick

This is a false statement Dr. D.
 
  • #50
Russell E. Rierson said:
This is a false statement Dr. D.
Then are you saying you can follow the mathematics of what I wrote? If so, then let's talk about exactly what the presumed constraints on the fundamental equation are. Once I am convinced you understand that, then we need to look at the solutions. But, until you understand the equation and its solutions, let's not talk about the implications.

Dick
 
  • #51
Doctordick said:
Then are you saying you can follow the mathematics of what I wrote? If so, then let's talk about exactly what the presumed constraints on the fundamental equation are. Once I am convinced you understand that, then we need to look at the solutions. But, until you understand the equation and its solutions, let's not talk about the implications.

Dick

If the tau dimension is interchangable with the other dimensions then symmetry holds, as explained previously by you Dr. D. So the terms in your constraint equation can be interchangable.



If the fundamental equation can represent/explain anything, it is analogous to the "wave function of the universe" proposed by Hartle and Hawking, derived from the Wheeler Dewitt equation/constraint:

H(psi) = 0

H is the "Hamiltonian" but its terms do not have the symmetry of your constraints equation since the tau axis of your equation is interchangable with the other dimensions.

If at the present time , I still do not "have a clue", I hope you will still show me a little mercy ...


Of course the symmetry means that everything reduces to a scalar.

Interesting...
 
Last edited:
  • #52
Russell E. Rierson said:
If the tau dimension is interchangable with the other dimensions then symmetry holds, as explained previously by you Dr. D. So the terms in your constraint equation can be interchangeable.



If the fundamental equation can represent/explain anything, it is analogous to the "wave function of the universe" proposed by Hartle and Hawking, derived from the Wheeler Dewitt equation/constraint:

H(psi) = 0

H is the "Hamiltonian" but its terms do not have the symmetry of your constraints equation since the tau axis of your equation is interchangable with the other dimensions.

If at the present time , I still do not "have a clue", I hope you will still show me a little mercy ...
I think you are trying to jump ahead of the presentation and trying to interpret what I am saying in terms which you already understand without looking carefully at what I am doing. I am defining only five things. Five very simple concepts: A – what it is we wish to explain; C – what it is we have to go on; B – the things we will use to defend the accuracy of our expectations; \vec{\Psi} the mathematical algorithm which will yield those expectation.

The only serious issue to consider at this point is, can C indeed be referenced by a set of numbers without imposing any constraint on what C actually is?

If it can be then what we are looking for is a mathematical algorithm which will convert B into the proper expectation. If it cannot be, then I have a major problem. All you need do to stop the proof is to show me a counter example: i.e., show me a set whose elements cannot be referred to. If they can be referred to than I can use the reference itself as a label.

If indeed what I am doing is analogous to what is being done in the references you give then I ask why they haven't worked out the consequences of their solution. I think you are confusing the issue of what I am doing with the consequences of what I am doing. Let's take what I am doing one step at a time and we will get to the consequences down the road.

Russell E. Rierson said:
Of course the symmetry means that everything reduces to a scalar.

Interesting...
Now here, I have no idea of what is going on in your mind. What could you possibly mean by "everything"? Certainly you can not be referring to A, B or C as I have done nothing which requires any of them to be a scalar. And if you are referring to \vec{\Psi}, that certainly is not a scalar as it is nothing but an absolutely unconstrained representation of a mathematical algorithm: some procedure which carries one set of numbers into another.

The only possibility which remains is that you think it implies my references to the elements of A are scalars. Sure they are; they are just references, nothing more than mere labels which are, at the moment, undefined!

Personally, I think your biggest problem is trying to read too much into what I am saying. Definition is the essence of communicating and one should be very careful that all definitions used are understood by all parties. At the moment, we have only five things defined (except for basic math itself which I am presuming is understood).

The first issue is, under the definitions I have given, is the fundamental equation a valid equation? Once we have established that, we can proceed to solve the equation. As I do that, I will, from time to time, define additional things. Exactly what is meant by those definitions will be clear when I present those definitions.

This is all just straight logic -- Dick
 
  • #53
Doctordick said:
The only serious issue to consider at this point is, can C indeed be referenced by a set of numbers without imposing any constraint on what C actually is?


An approximation of C is not necessarily, a limitation on C. An optimal definition?

There will always be unknowns... The only certainty is uncertainty.
 
Last edited:
  • #54
Russell, I don't know how to reach you with my thoughts. Let me try with another tack!

I believe some things are true and you believe some things are true; but the things you believe to be true don't exactly all map into the things I believe to be true. I put forth that the real problem between us is that you want me to explain what you believe to be true: i.e., it's like asking one to prove the authorities are in error while assuming they are right, a very foolish proposition!

I am asking you to believe five very specific things which I believe are correct. I only continue this conversation because I believe that you also believe these specific things are correct. Clearly, if you do not believe they are correct then we have no basis for communication.

So let's look at exactly what I am asking you to believe:

1) I am asking you to believe that mathematics is a logical structure: i.e., that any results of any mathematical deduction are as true as is the start position of the deduction. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in the validity of mathematical deduction.

2) That there exists something to explain which we do not understand! I call it A. If you don't believe in A then you have nothing which needs explanation.

3) That there exists some information about A which is available to us. I call it C. If you don't believe in C then you have nothing on which to build an explanation of A.

4) That there exists some part of C which we can use to evaluate our explanation. I call it B. If you don't believe in B then you have no way to defend an explanation of A.

5) That there exists a way to refer to significant aspects of A, B, and C. If you believe there exist aspects of the problem which cannot be referred to, then I hold that you believe you cannot think about the problem.

Now, which one of those beliefs do you think is false? These are the only beliefs I ask of you.

Believe me Russell, I am trying very hard to be clear!
Russell E. Rierson said:
An approximation of C is not necessarily, a limitation on C. An optimal definition?
All I require is that any significant aspect of C can be referred to! If it can be referred to, then I can use the referrence as a label. If I can label it, I can assign a number to it. If I can assign a number to it I can record it's existence as a point on the x axis. This is no more than a recording device to allow reference to that particular significant aspect without any idea of what it really is. The essense of abstract thought is being able to talk about things without knowing what they are.

Why do I need a limitation on C? or an optimal definition? I am solving an abstract problem and the solution must serve any definition of C as I have utterly no idea of what C actually is, and neither do you! That is the most central aspect of my presentation.

Looking forward to your response -- Dick
 
  • #55
Doctordick said:
Russell, I don't know how to reach you with my thoughts. So let's look at exactly what I am asking you to believe:

1) I am asking you to believe that mathematics is a logical structure: i.e., that any results of any mathematical deduction are as true as is the start position of the deduction. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in the validity of mathematical deduction.

As long as you cannot prove both a statement and its negation, then the mathematical structure is logically consistent. I hope you understand also Dr. D.


Doctordick said:
2) That there exists something to explain which we do not understand! I call it A. If you don't believe in A then you have nothing which needs explanation.

Belief or non-belief is irrelevant, since unknowns definitely exist, independent of our belief.



Doctordick said:
3) That there exists some information about A which is available to us. I call it C. If you don't believe in C then you have nothing on which to build an explanation of A.

If the information is available to us then our non-belief is totally bogus.

Doctordick said:
4) That there exists some part of C which we can use to evaluate our explanation. I call it B. If you don't believe in B then you have no way to defend an explanation of A.

So B is a way to "test" the validity of our explanation for A, iff, my interpretation of the Dr. D explication of B, is correct...

Doctordick said:
5) That there exists a way to refer to significant aspects of A, B, and C. If you believe there exist aspects of the problem which cannot be referred to, then I hold that you believe you cannot think about the problem.

Logic is the final arbiter of truth Dr. D, not beliefs.

Doctordick said:
Now, which one of those beliefs do you think is false? These are the only beliefs I ask of you.

Ambiguity rears its ugly head once again Dr. D. Why are you saying that mathematical "definitions" are beliefs?

Doctordick said:
The essense of abstract thought is being able to talk about things without knowing what they are.

Of course, the essence of truth boils down to symbolic arrangements of identities. Symmetry forms the basis of truth.


Doctordick said:
Why do I need a limitation on C? or an optimal definition? I am solving an abstract problem and the solution must serve any definition of C as I have utterly no idea of what C actually is, and neither do you! That is the most central aspect of my presentation.

Looking forward to your response -- Dick

C is the information; A is the unknown; B is the way to validate expectations of A.
 
Last edited:
  • #56
Russell E. Rierson said:
Dr. D, I completely agree with the following statements from your web page:



This is obviously true, what are you trying to say then? that Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries are two different, yet, equivalent ways of explaining nature?

[URL]http://www.cord.edu/dept/physics/credo/etrain.html[/urll]

Dr. D, I completely agree with the following statements from your web page:


from the web pageDr. D: said:
To a certain extent we owe some of the confusion surrounding relativity to the scientists who, in the face of this problem, define "simultaneous" in a manner which they felt was the most obvious: they define it in a manner which is consistent with the standard Newtonian space time diagram. We can't really fault them as such an attack at least allows relativistic phenomena to reduce to the Newtonian result when the finite speed of light becomes inconsequential. However, they shortchange the customer when they hold that such is the only possible definition of "simultaneity".

This is obviously true, what are you trying to say then? that Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries are two different, yet, equivalent ways of explaining nature?

http://www.cord.edu/dept/physics/credo/etrain.html

Special Relativity and Simultaneity

The special theory of relativity is based on two postulates:

1. No test of the laws of physics provides any way to distinguish one inertial reference frame from another. (Any frame moving at constant velocity is as good as any other as far as the laws of physics are concerned.)

2. The speed of light in a vacuum is a constant independent of the motion of the source or observer.

If we accept these two statements as true we must give up our ideas about the constancy of time and space as independent quantities. This is most obvious when looking at "simultaneous" events. In relativity theory the determination of simultaneity is frame dependent. In other words, two events that are simultaneous in one frame are not simultaneous in any other inertial frame.

I authored a thread regarding the usefulness of simultaneity postulate and offer a contination of the theme here.

I disagree with the statement that "two events that are simultaneous in one frame are not simultaneous in any other inertial frame." The moving train gedunken of Einstein, where O' moving through the midpoint M between light sources A and B, when the two the lights are pulsed simultaneously will be determined as simultaneous in the moving frame also.

Einstein’s original simultaneity experiment, “Relativity”, pages 25-27, has a moving observer, O’ moving toward a light source B, from a light source A, behind. As O’ passes, M at velocity v = 1 at t = t0 = 0, the midpoint between A and B in the stationary frame, the lights are pulsed on at A and B. Sometime t1 later, the light from B is recorded by O’ and at t2 later, the light from A is recorded.

This example is a definition of simultaneity, or the lack of, the simultaneous occurrence of events between inertial frames moving wrt each other.

A t0|→----------------------------------|--------------------------------------------←|t0 B

--------------------------| -t1-----------|t0→--------|t1------|t2-------------------------→

According to theoretical postulates, that O’ measures the light from A and B at different times, O’ must conclude the lights are pulsed on at different times as O’ has no way of knowing he is moving wrt the sources at A and B.

Is this the only valid interpretation?

First, O’ can conclude he does not know if he is moving or not. If he is moving wrt to the sources of the light then the different times of recording do not leave the simultaneity postulate as the only conclusion. Therefore, O’ makes an effort to determine any O' motion wrt to a stationary frame. When he records the pulse from B, he notes the wavelength and time of arrival. Sure enough, at t2 the light from A arrives. Immediately O’ notices the blue/red shift of the light pulses and concludes there is a possibility of the pulses measured with blue/red shifts are from sources with identical light characteristics, hence O’ determines v = 1. From the measured time between pulses, Δt ═ t2 – t1 = 1, he calculates the distance O’ traveled from the measured velocity, v = 1, as d’ = vΔt = 1.

Now O’ asks, if the pulses were simultaneous emitted in a stationary frame, where is t1 located wrt to the midpoint. Of course O’ is starting from an assumption he crossed M at t0 in the stationary O frame. This is just the first of many assumptions he can make.

O’ is moving at v ═ 1 for a time t1 when the pulse from B arrives at t1. The distance B-M = D = ct1 + t1 = t1(c + 1). During ∆t = 1 the light from A would travel from -t1 to t2 or a distance 2t1 + v∆t = 2t1 + 1 during ∆t = 1. This assumes the lights were pulsed simultaneously. So O’ waits and measures Δt = 1.

O’ having recorded the time for the arrival at t2, calculates backwards a distance dA = cΔt, and obtains the distance traveled by A from –t1 to t2. This distance is 2t1 + vΔt, or 2t1 + 1. This confirms the lucky guess. If O’ hadn’t passed the midpoint of A-B at to = 0, then the measured ∆t would be greater or less than 1 if the assumption that O’ was moving is correct.

Because he problem is framed as it is O’ correctly determines his relative motion and velocity and the fact that the pulses started at t0 in the stationary frame and the moving frame. Whatever the frame used, the result is the same. In other words O’ can make the calculations using a symbolic reasoning with the Δt and v measurements only. The measured Δt, the measured v gives the same result in analysis of the problem. The difference in numbers using the stationary frame numbers, as calculated by O, for instance, gives the same result. However, O has the advantage that he knows that O’ is the moving frame and that the conditions are as outlined in the definition of the problem. O’, knowledgeable in time dilation phenomena of clocks, does not fall into a dogmatic trap of assuming the relativity postulate of simultaneity without question.

The O’ observer, therefore determines the significant events as simultaneous, notwithstanding his measured values of t and v differ from those made by the stationary O observer.


:smile:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #57
:rolleyes: :cry: :zzz:

-----A'-----O'-----B'------>TRAIN

----A-----O------B----EMBANKEMENT

According to Einstein, two lightning flashes strike the ground at both points A and B simultaneously for the observer at O on the embankement, but not for the observer on moving train at O' , because the lightning flash at B will appear to the person on the train, to occur before the lightning flash at A, due to the train's forward motion.
 
Last edited:
  • #58
Russell,

I have been slow to respond to your latest posts because I am seriously trying to understand exactly why you are baulking at the five issues I am trying to get you to accept. After considerable thought, I think I may understand what is bothering you.
Russell E. Rierson said:
Belief or non-belief is irrelevant, since unknowns definitely exist, independent of our belief.
Once again, you have made a statement which made me suspect that you were trying to muddy the issue through use of the ambiguity of the English language. I have no argument at all with what you are saying. What I find it to be is a misdirection of attention toward an issue which has no bearing at all on what I am trying to communicate; an issue which I had presumed we had no disagreement. My reactions to such things has, in the past, been to conclude that either there is something about what I am saying which you are missing or that or you are intentionally using misdirection of attention to prevent communication. You have continually assured me that you are only trying to clarify my position. I am going to continue to take you at your word.

Belief and/or non-belief is always an issue in any communication because people invariably believe they know what the words they are using mean. Very few people are aware of the shear volume of assumptions in that belief. That is, in fact, the first hurdle we have to get over. Once we can get the discussion into mathematics proper, communication should get much easier.

Assuming our only real problem is miscommunication, I suspect it may be due to your misinterpretation of what I am trying to do. One problem I have always had is the fact that everyone presumes I am trying to present a theory. I am not! I am trying to present a careful analysis of the problem of creating an explanation itself. That is the reason I have to move to the abstract.

Essentially, almost every complaint you have put forward could be categorized as an attempt to clarify my assumptions. That desire on your part is very understandable as all scientists are trained to be very careful about their assumptions. The real difficulty here is that I am doing the very best I can to make no assumptions at all and you find that approach very difficult to comprehend. That is exactly the reason why I cannot get the attention of any professional scientist. His mind is utterly closed to the idea that any success is to be found down that rabbit hole!

It is the assumption of the scientific community that absolutely nothing of consequence can be deduced from such an approach. As a result no one who has been trained in science has ever taken the trouble to look down that hole! I have looked and found astonishing consequences. Not a theory but fundamental constraints on theories themselves which yield far reaching consequences. It both closes and opens many doors in the realm of imaginative thought.

I have said, several times I think, that I want to show you a derivation of physics from first principals. In order to do that, I must first get across exactly what I mean by "first principals". That is what I have been attempting to do. In actual fact, the entire derivation is presented in messages #3 and #4 of this thread. Once you understand exactly what is being said there, the only problem which remains is to actually examine the solutions to that "fundamental equation".

All I really ask of you is that you accept, as first principals, the four things that derivation is based on. The word used for that acceptance is a rather mundane issue; whether it be "belief", "acceptance", "understanding" or whatever, the real issue is, will you work with it? The first thing is acceptance of mathematics as a good communication medium: i.e., that mathematical terms are well understood. From our current discussion, I don't think you have any real argument with that so, please, let's drop opposition to the suggestion that it is a fundamental first principal.

The other three issues are the definitions of A, B and C. I think you want these issues to be clarified when, in actual fact, clarifying them essentially amounts to making assumptions about them. If I make any assumptions, then I am limiting the applicability of my deductions and I have no wish to do so. In order for you to seriously argue with my deduction, you must show that some step in my deduction is not possible without clarifying what A, B and C stand for (beyond the definitions I have specified).

The final critical lynch pin in the deduction might be called a "labeling axiom". That would be the fact that I assume all significant issues represented by A, B or C can be referred to with labels. That it is not necessary to make any specification as to what these labels actually refer to beyond the fact that they are significant issues. The central issue of the deduction is that I can deal with all significant issues without knowing what they actually are.

If that is my intention, just exactly how do you expect me to explain to you what they are? I have identified the categories they refer to and the relationship between them: i.e., why I want to talk about three different aspects of explanation. Beyond that I cannot go.

1) A is what is to be explained!
2) C is what we have to work with!
3) B is a subset of C which we will use to test the validity of our model.

The first step is to accept the "first principals" as I have presented them. The second step is to understand, in detail, the derivation given in message #3 and #4: how it is a direct consequence of being able to label the significant elements of A, B, and C and nothing else.

Once you understand the necessity of the fundamental equation, then we can look at the solutions to that equation and learn a lot about what we can and cannot know.

Only with regard to clarifying your impressions, I will respond to some of your other comments: i.e., I am not trying to continue an argument with you by what follows; only trying to clarify my position.
Russell E. Rierson said:
So B is a way to "test" the validity of our explanation for A, iff, my interpretation of the Dr. D explication of B, is correct...
No! B constitutes that information which is used to verify the validity of our expectations. It is not the "way" to test the validity. The way to test the validity is to generate expectations for B a subtly different issue.
Russell E. Rierson said:
Ambiguity rears its ugly head once again Dr. D. Why are you saying that mathematical "definitions" are beliefs?
Yes, English is quite ambiguous! The belief I was referring to was the belief that the specific definitions are acceptable: i.e., that they do indeed fulfill the requirements of a definition. If you are a rational person, you must accept the fact that errors can be made. It is entirely possible that, via some subtle thing accidentally missed, a presumed valid definition will later turn out to be internally inconsistent. Acceptance that the definition is without error clearly constitutes a "belief". In fact, thinking you have made no deduction errors constitutes a "belief"; any mathematics and/or logic is just chock full of "beliefs"!
Russell E. Rierson said:
Therefore A is an undefined variable, an identity operator, or an entity, such, that what relations can be known about A, must be necessarily true on logical or analytic grounds. If you can't mentally grasp that logical necessity, then, with all due respect, "your construction" is "SOL".
What my fundamental equation says, it says about our expectations of B. It only applies to A because of the relationship that the significant aspects of B which can be referred to are, by definition, constrained to be significant aspects of A which can be referred to! The fundamental equation is a logical consequence of the fact that the significant aspects of B may be labeled and nothing else!

At no point do I ever say anything about knowing something about A! Whatever A is, it is a totally open issue! If you close that issue in any way, you remove the generality of the deduction.
Russell E. Rierson said:
Doctordick said:
No, B is neither the abstract model nor the equations! B is whatever it is that we are going to use to defend our model's validity!
B is a subset of C about which we need to create "expectations", ...your words. Make up your mind Doc. You can't have yer cake and eat it too
It appears here that you are confusing a subset of the information we have to work with, with our abstract model and/or the equations specifying that abstract model. They are very different things.

Russell E. Rierson said:
Thanks for the clarification Dr. D. Yes, I wasn't completely sure about what you ment by saying "C is the information we have", and I assumed it was a set of known/understood quantities. You are correct IMHO, information can exist without understanding.
Communication can sometimes be very difficult. Somehow I have failed to communicate the idea that A, B and C are all completely unknown. This is very different from our model which, since we created it, must be known. Likewise, the fundamental equation is also a very known thing!

I hope I have cleared something up here. I would like to believe we are getting somewhere. I would seriously like to get to the defense or the fact that the fundamental equation is indeed a necessary consequence of the "labeling axiom.

Have fun -- Dick
 
  • #59
Doctordick said:
Belief and/or non-belief is always an issue in any communication because people invariably believe they know what the words they are using mean. Very few people are aware of the shear volume of assumptions in that belief. That is, in fact, the first hurdle we have to get over. Once we can get the discussion into mathematics proper, communication should get much easier.

If my interpretation is correct, the communication must be as free from ambiguity as possible; ergo, we must communicate via "mathematics", since it is currently the least ambiguous language possible. It is a "meta-language".

Doctordick said:
The real difficulty here is that I am doing the very best I can to make no assumptions at all and you find that approach very difficult to comprehend. That is exactly the reason why I cannot get the attention of any professional scientist. His mind is utterly closed to the idea that any success is to be found down that rabbit hole!

That "rabbit hole/success/failure" is a whole discussion/debate within itself Dr. D. It asserts or ...assumes? that physical existence is isomorphic to a mathematical structure.
Doctordick said:
I have said, several times I think, that I want to show you a derivation of physics from first principals. In order to do that, I must first get across exactly what I mean by "first principals". That is what I have been attempting to do. In actual fact, the entire derivation is presented in messages #3 and #4 of this thread. Once you understand exactly what is being said there, the only problem which remains is to actually examine the solutions to that "fundamental equation".

Here is the relevant quote from post 3.


Doctordick said:
The first fundamental component is, "what is to be explained"; thus our first problem is to find an abstract way of representing anybody of information. Let "A" be what is to be explained and proceed with the following primitive definitions:
1. A is a set.
2. B is a set, defined to be an unordered finite collection of elements of A
3. C is defined to be a finite collection of sets B.
The specific problem is to create an abstract model which will model any explanation of A obtained from C. As an aside, it should be obvious that the necessity of defining C arises because, if all the elements of A are known, then A itself is a model of A and the problem posed is trivial. (Nevertheless, please note that the trivial case where C is identical to B which is identical to A is not excluded in this presentation.)

The second fundamental component is the definition of "an explanation" itself: we must establish an abstract definition of exactly what is meant by "an explanation of A". We will hold here that an explanation of A will consist of the following elements.
1. A set of reference labels for the elements of A (so that we may be able to reference those elements and thus know and discuss what it is that we are dealing with prior to achieving an understanding of those elements).
2. An algorithm which will yield the probability of any specific set B derived from A which is consistent with the distribution of B in C (this is required to assure the explanation yields rational expectations: i.e., so that our explanation will be consistent with the available information "C").
Construction of a model:

Since B is finite, its elements may be labeled.
1. Let labeli be the label of a particular element of B.
2. Let all labeli be mapped into the set of real numbers xi.
3. Let all numbers xi be mapped into points on the real x axis.



Doctordick said:
All I really ask of you is that you accept, as first principals, the four things that derivation is based on. The word used for that acceptance is a rather mundane issue; whether it be "belief", "acceptance", "understanding" or whatever, the real issue is, will you work with it? The first thing is acceptance of mathematics as a good communication medium: i.e., that mathematical terms are well understood. From our current discussion, I don't think you have any real argument with that so, please, let's drop opposition to the suggestion that it is a fundamental first principal.

The other three issues are the definitions of A, B and C. I think you want these issues to be clarified when, in actual fact, clarifying them essentially amounts to making assumptions about them. If I make any assumptions, then I am limiting the applicability of my deductions and I have no wish to do so. In order for you to seriously argue with my deduction, you must show that some step in my deduction is not possible without clarifying what A, B and C stand for (beyond the definitions I have specified).

The final critical lynch pin in the deduction might be called a "labeling axiom". That would be the fact that I assume all significant issues represented by A, B or C can be referred to with labels. That it is not necessary to make any specification as to what these labels actually refer to beyond the fact that they are significant issues. The central issue of the deduction is that I can deal with all significant issues without knowing what they actually are.

If an issue is significant then it is labeled. If X then Y.

Doctordick said:
If that is my intention, just exactly how do you expect me to explain to you what they are? I have identified the categories they refer to and the relationship between them: i.e., why I want to talk about three different aspects of explanation. Beyond that I cannot go.

1) A is what is to be explained!
2) C is what we have to work with!
3) B is a subset of C which we will use to test the validity of our model.

The first step is to accept the "first principals" as I have presented them. The second step is to understand, in detail, the derivation given in message #3 and #4: how it is a direct consequence of being able to label the significant elements of A, B, and C and nothing else.

Once you understand the necessity of the fundamental equation, then we can look at the solutions to that equation and learn a lot about what we can and cannot know.

1.] A is the unknown

2.] C is the information

3.] B will be used to test the validity of the mathematical model. B is not the test itself.

Please proceed.
 
Last edited:
  • #60
Maybe we are getting some place!

I am going to presume your last post signifies understanding of my "first principals" though I am still confused by some of your comments.
Russell E. Rierson said:
If an issue is significant then it is labeled. If X then Y.
You state this as an if/then procedure: "if it is significant then label it". That is not exactly what I am saying. What I am saying is "label all elements of B". By definition, the number of elements is finite so the process can be completed. The only possible complaint with the instruction is that there is some aspect of B which cannot be labeled. My solution to that problem is "if you can refer to it, I can use your reference as a label". The only place where "significance" comes in is, "if it cannot be referred to, how can it be significant to your solution to the problem?"

A very real issue exists here: your solution to the problem is to explain C (you have nothing else to work with)! It is an assumption that your best explanation of C is an explanation of A. Certainly there is no proof that A can be explained; we are trying to lay out a road map of the best we can do given what we know (whatever that might be)!

What I am saying is that your statement of significance implies one needs to know whether or not it is significant. My statement is quite the other side of the coin: if you cannot refer to it, how can it be significant to your solution?
Russell E. Rierson said:
That "rabbit hole/success/failure" is a whole discussion/debate within itself Dr. D. It asserts or ...assumes? that physical existence is isomorphic to a mathematical structure.
Again, I am completely baffled by you insertion of that comment. I can only attribute it to lack of communication between us due to the ambiguity of English!

I will none the less proceed as if you understand the labeling issue. Quoting from message #3:
Doctordick said:
Construction of a model:

Since B is finite, its elements may be labeled.
1. Let labeli be the label of a particular element of B.
2. Let all labeli be mapped into the set of real numbers xi.
3. Let all numbers xi be mapped into points on the real x axis.
Thus it is seen that any set of labels for the elements of A available to the explanation (i.e., appearing in any set B) may be mapped into points on the real x axis; however a minor problem exists in any attempt to use this as a general model.
Sub Problem number 1:
Since all possible explanations must be modeled and B may contain the same element of A more than once: i.e., the points xi need not be unique. There is a problem in modeling the elements of B as points on the real x axis. It should be clear that points with the same location can not represent multiple occurrences of the mapped label and information contained in B is lost in step three as put forth.
Solution to Sub Problem number 1:
1. Add to the model a real \tau axis orthogonal to the real x axis.
2. Attach to every xi an arbitrary \tau_i such that every pair of identical xi points have different \tau_i attached. Our model can now display the fact of multiple occurrences of identical xi.
The abstract model of any possible explanation is now a set of points (one set for each B) mapped into a set of (x,\tau) planes (one plane for each set B making up the set C).

We have now accomplished the first step: we have established a specific way of modeling all possible references to the elements in B in the set C...
Do you understand exactly why the possibility of problem number 1 arises and how the introduction of an orthogonal axis and the "manufactured" information resolves the difficulty? Secondly, do you understand that such a move does not constrain the possible model at all but rather expands the representable possibilities?

I ask that question because, right here, my attack goes counter to everything any scientists has ever been taught. The scientific attack is to do one's best to constrain the situation to the one applicable to the problem they have in mind; whereas my attack is the make absolutely sure that, whatever I might do, I must never constrain the possible solution of the problem in any way as I know neither what the problem is nor what the solution is!

If anything about this step bothers you, let me know and I will try to do a better job of making the step clear. If you tell me you understand the step, I will continue.

Have fun -- Dick
 

Similar threads

Replies
15
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 87 ·
3
Replies
87
Views
8K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
21
Views
3K
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
3K