News Wikileaks creates diplomatic crisis

[humanino]

Is it not common knowledge?

I think I have done my share at providing references. The reason I am unwilling to dig out the french story is that it came from a french journal (le monde) whose older articles are accessible only through subscription. I also saw the same story on a european news channel available in french and german.

edit
I was able to find this

The blockade has taken its toll on Gaza's water and sewage network. Lack of spare parts has made repairs difficult. Intermittent power supplies have made pumps reliant on generators, which in turn have lacked spare parts and fuel.
The WHO says Operation Cast Lead worsened an already bad situation. Before the operation, it says Gazans had only half the water they needed according to international standards, and 80% of water supplied did not meet WHO drinking standards.
At the height of the January fighting, half of Gaza's population had no access to piped water.
[...]
Restrictions on construction materials, particularly cement, and spare parts for machinery, have had a big impact on projects ranging from water treatment to grave digging. Reconstruction of buildings and infrastructure destroyed in the 2009 Israeli operations in Gaza has been virtually impossible.
The UN says restrictions on cement have made the reconstruction of 12,000 Palestinian homes damaged or destroyed in Israeli military operations "impossible".

One would have to research in UN reports to find the best information.

The reason I am unwilling to provide this is simple : I try to follow both european and US news, and the coverage is simply too different. In the past, I made some attempts for some time at opening threads when there were events happening. At best I get skepticism. I estimate that it would be a part time job to obtain results trying to do that. I simply do not have the strength.

Now again : I would be interested to read the evidence for the claims that weapons are traded against food in Gaza. I am not claiming that it is false. I am requesting help.

 

[russ_watters]

Do you propose to make sure each of them receives only the minimal amount of food and water to survive ?

No, I propose that aid be provided directly to the people who need it or not be provided at all. When you just drop it of on a pier, you give it to the enemy to use for coercion/profit.

I have never heard of such events and would be interested to see the evidence.

This is common knowledge - a huge problem with aid in any war-torn area. It's virtually always a problem. A few examples:

The United Nations relief agency United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) is demanding that Hamas return food and blankets intended for Gaza Strip civilians in Palestine, which was seized by Hamas' Ministry of Social Affairs.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/UN_demands_return_of_aid_seized_by_Hamas

Islamist fighters in Somalia said Friday that they seized food from the World Food Program from markets in Mogadishu and burned more than 500 bags of maize and wheat.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38787871/ns/world_news-africa/

Food is power. Food is money.

Let me anticipate that you have the evidence and follow logically. If the principle of the blockade would work, they would have nobody to buy the weapons to. So either the principle of the blockade has failed, or they should be allowed to receive food.

Is the word "to" extraneous? Anyway, if the blockade works, weapons would be limited, yes. And yes, no blockade is perfect. Using the food for profit is only half the story, though, as I said: at least as big is the coercion factor of having food that people need.

Now again : I would be interested to read the evidence for the claims that weapons are traded against food in Gaza. I am not claiming that it is false. I am requesting help.

Clarification: weapons aren't directly bartered for food typically, AFAIK, it's just that food is worth a lot of money in a place where it is scarce, so militants can profit from selling it. That enables them to buy more weapons (among other things).

 

[russ_watters]

Googling "food for weapons" turns up this interesting, old article:

For the U. S., food distribution is an economic and moral problem. Hitler uses food as a political weapon. Last week, in Foreign Affairs, Economist Karl Brandt listed some of the ingenious and devastating uses to which this weapon has been put by Nazi experts in the last seven years.

At Home & Abroad. Both Stalin and Hitler use food to destroy internal opposition, reward accomplishment, punish failure, establish the class distinctions of their "new orders."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765334,00.html

So I realize I need to append my original statement:

Do people use food to make weapons ?

No, food is a weapon.

 

[humanino]

Clarification: weapons aren't directly bartered for food typically, AFAIK, it's just that food is worth a lot of money in a place where it is scarce, so militants can profit from selling it. That enables them to buy more weapons (among other things).

Thank you for the clarification. Note that the emphasis is not mine below.

No, but they do use food to buy weapons

 

[humanino]

No, food is a weapon.

Well, you said that you do not want food dumped on a pier, but that you would rather have the aid directly given to the people. That is (more than) acceptable to me, I would be quite favorable to this. It is not acceptable to me to propose to starve more than a million people.

Back on topic I would suggest.

 

[russ_watters]

Thank you for the clarification. Note that the emphasis is not mine below.

It's not any less true than it was before, it's just that there is a more direct issue of food being a weapon in addition to being used to buy weapons. Either way, your rhetorical question is still nonsense.

Well, you said that you do not want food dumped on a pier, but that you would rather have the aid directly given to the people. That is (more than) acceptable to me, I would be quite favorable to this. It is not acceptable to me to propose to starve more than a million people.

Well the problem is that you can't provide the food directly to the people without employing a large military force to distribute it. That's the point! If you can't protect the food (and as I've shown, it often isn't protected), you may as well be just dumping it on a pier for the terrorists to take.

You're also being short-sighted about this. These people are ruled by terrorists (that's the Palestinians and the Somalis. Starving isn't the only concern of theirs. There is a benefit to not providing the aid to the terrorists in that it can help rid these people of their oppressors (or at least, not make their oppressors stronger and better able to oppress them).

 

[humanino]

It's not any less true than it was before, it's just that there is a more direct issue of food being a weapon in addition to being used to buy weapons. Either way, your rhetorical question is still nonsense.

The question "do people us food to make weapons ?" was indeed rhetorical. The premise is that it is not an acceptable solution to starve a million people. I may be short sighted, but I still believe that the situation, complex as it is, can and will ultimately be solved. Only question is how. You say you need a large military force to distribute the force. Maybe we can quote numbers about the military force in Israel. Nowhere else on Earth is so much spent per capita into the army.

You do not fight terrorism within a population by starving the population. It is however an ideal strategy if you want to maintain the terrorism into this population, especially if your own economy depends so much on your military force.

 

[mheslep]

Googling "food for weapons" turns up this interesting, old article: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765334,00.html

What a great old Henry Luce era find Russ. See the last paragraph for a time warp, yuk, yuk.

> Crying "appeasement," 35 prominent liberals, in a letter to Secretary Hull, denounced the release of food to France. Their argument: French industry is working for Hitler; Nazis seized 1,000,000 tons of French wheat to hold in Occupied France; food shipments will undermine the British blockade, lead to Nazi-prompted demands for U. S. feeding of other conquered lands.

 

[humanino]

Is this very quote in support of my position against political decisions to starve population for strategy purposes ? I can also contribute further by asking my wife to recount soviet horror stories

The Communist leadership perceived famine not as a humanitarian catastrophe but as a means of class struggle and used starvation as a punishment tool to force peasants into collective farms.

Maybe we will just get back to topic now ?

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, officially we have never heard anything different. Simply, the facts do not match. When some obscure group of french activists try to bring in plastic pipes to repair water wells, and Israel refuses their entry because the plastic pipes can be used to manufacture rockets, this does not make headlines within the US. Why is that so ?

If someone would like a reference to the above events I am mentioning, please just take them as an imaginary example. There are enough other occurrences so that, if they do not know already, one specific reference will not change much.

What the...


You post this (bolding mine):

The Israeli government does acknowledge that their purpose is to cause the maximum hardship to the entire people inside the strip while making sure the international community does not diagnostic a "humanitarian crisis".

And then in one move you pull a 180 degree spin! Do you have any sources for what you're saying in the last page before this became about the absurd notion that withholding food, or stockpiling, isn't an aspect of warfare. See "SIEGE TACTICS".

You can't just keep making nutsy points in the midst of vast internal contradictions in your 'logic', AND make **** up. I have a new respect for mheslp and russ's patience!

 

[nismaratwork]

Is this very quote in support of my position against political decisions to starve population for strategy purposes ? I can also contribute further by asking my wife to recount soviet horror stories
Maybe we will just get back to topic now ?

I'd call that a weapon: A weapon is a tool used to force others by threat of harm done to them and/or those they care for. I think starving people into a corral fits that bill.

 

[humanino]

What the...

"The government does acknowledge that their purpose [...]" refers to the leak, the acknowledgment is there. Did you read it ?

You can't just keep making nutsy points in the midst of vast internal contradictions in your 'logic', AND make **** up. I have a new respect for mheslp and russ's patience!

Well, you cannot expect to understand if you do not pay any attention or read the material we are talking about. Where did I miss respect to those individuals ? Is it just that it upsets you when people have a different opinion ? Have you heard of France latest talks with Israel (today) ?

 

[nismaratwork]

"The government does acknowledge that their purpose [...]" refers to the leak, the acknowledgment is there. Did you read it ?
Well, you cannot expect to understand if you do not pay any attention or read the material we are talking about. Where did I miss respect to those individuals ? Is it just that it upsets you when people have a different opinion ? Have you heard of France latest talks with Israel (today) ?

I disagree and point out logical contradictions you make... so I don't keep up with the news? Try something that isn't ad hominem, and maybe I'll bother to respond.

 

[humanino]

so I don't keep up with the news? Try something that isn't ad hominem, and maybe I'll bother to respond.

It has nothing to do with you.

In the sample that I have, the emphasis in coverages for the events relating to France FM's latest visit in Israel are very different in the US and outside the US. Here in the US, emphasis is being put on the "warm" welcome the palestinian people gave to France FM. Note that we give the same kind of show to our politicians in France as well whenever they utter something we do not like. This emphasis to me is (at best) biased journalism. This is only worth news "in passing". The main emphasis as it is properly put elsewhere is on the reason for the visit and the discussions taking place.

Anyway, to be honest the cultural gap is so wide that I think I should restrain from posting here. It would be mutually beneficial. Discussions I have here are just endless repetitions of misunderstandings. I doubt it can entirely be blamed on my english.

 

[nismaratwork]

And now...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/02/wikileaks.suspect/index.html?hpt=T2

We have a dead man walking, unless he can cut a deal.

edit:

Washington (CNN) -- The U.S. Army Wednesday notified Pfc. Bradley Manning, a prime suspect in the WikiLeaks case, that he now faces 22 more charges in connection with allegedly downloading secret information from computers in Iraq.

The most serious new charge alleges that he aided the enemy by making this information public. That charge is punishable by death. A news release from the Army said the prosecution team "has notified the defense that the prosecution will not recommend the death penalty," but technically it is up to the commander overseeing the case to make the final decision about the death penalty.

All told, Manning, a military intelligence analyst from Oklahoma, now faces a total of 34 charges in the case, including:

-- Wrongfully causing intelligence to be published on the internet

-- Theft of public records

-- Transmitting defense information

-- Transferring classified data onto his personal computer

-- Disclosing classified information concerning the national defense.

Manning's lawyer, David Coombs, would not comment on the new charges, but posted a statement on his blog Wednesday evening:

"Over the past few weeks, the defense has been preparing for the possibility of additional charges in this case."

OUCH... that boy is never going to see the light of day again.

 

[turbo]

Manning is under severe restraints, including intrusive actions to prevent him from having normal sleep cycles. He can be woken by guards every 5 minutes or so under the pretext of checking if he is still in his cell. That type of confinement is abusive and would fit the definition of "torture" in the laws of all civilized countries.

 

[nismaratwork]

Manning is under severe restraints, including intrusive actions to prevent him from having normal sleep cycles. He can be woken by guards every 5 minutes or so under the pretext of checking if he is still in his cell. That type of confinement is abusive and would fit the definition of "torture" in the laws of all civilized countries.

Yep... I just love it...


If he has a coherent thought again in his life, I'll be impressed.

Now, torture would be my oft-mentioned white tubular room, uniformly lit, white noise, and not enough room to sit. THAT is torture, this is just a little friendly psychological trauma.

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm surprised no one has noticed the HBGary/Anonymous/Wikileaks debacle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary...erica.2C_Hunton_.26_Williams.2C_and_Anonymous

 

[nismaratwork]

i'm surprised no one has noticed the HBGary/Anonymous/Wikileaks debacle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary...erica.2C_Hunton_.26_Williams.2C_and_Anonymous

I'd say that deserves its own thread, or a place in "bundled... won"; I admit I noticed, but the Middle East has been... very absorbing.

I'd note: Wikileaks is not the issue in the case I'm rasing, it's the treason of an enlisted man. Besides, this won't be admissable in court... fruit from the poisoned tree. This is why most leaks go through some kind of watch-dog group.

 

[Proton Soup]

I'd say that deserves its own thread, or a place in "bundled... won"; I admit I noticed, but the Middle East has been... very absorbing.

I'd note: Wikileaks is not the issue in the case I'm rasing, it's the treason of an enlisted man. Besides, this won't be admissable in court... fruit from the poisoned tree. This is why most leaks go through some kind of watch-dog group.

this is not the bradley manning thread lynching thread, but it is interesting to read the IRC chat log of anonymous and HBGary reps. they demanded Penny fire Aaron (which she claimed an inability to do), and they've pretty much achieved that. http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2011/03/01/email-leak-ousts-hbgary-federal-ceo.html

they also demanded a contribution to manning's defense fund, which I'm not sure has/will materialize.

also, they have greg's email. and there's just so much stuff going on here with usg rootkits and such, that there's just no telling where it will end.

 

[Evo]

Manning is under severe restraints, including intrusive actions to prevent him from having normal sleep cycles. He can be woken by guards every 5 minutes or so under the pretext of checking if he is still in his cell. That type of confinement is abusive and would fit the definition of "torture" in the laws of all civilized countries.

Oh for god sakes, I was submittted to worse in a private hospital. The woman put into my room, was on morphine and an alarm would go off every few minutes when it stopped, the super loud alarm that would go off when that happened, not to mention the woman's screams.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh for god sakes, I was submittted to worse in a private hospital. The woman put into my room, was on morphine and an alarm would go off every few minutes when it stopped, the super loud alarm that would go off when that happened, not to mention the woman's screams.

Holy...


...you go through too much.

@Proton: I admit, years ago... many, I used to be on IRC... it was the rise of this kind of madness that made me leave, and never look back. This... exploitation of people and entities... it has to stop.

 

[Proton Soup]

Holy...


...you go through too much.

@Proton: I admit, years ago... many, I used to be on IRC... it was the rise of this kind of madness that made me leave, and never look back. This... exploitation of people and entities... it has to stop.

yeah. HBGary federal seemed to be doing some people exploiting of its own, tho.

 

[nismaratwork]

yeah. HBGary federal seemed to be doing some people exploiting of its own, tho.

Hell yes, but this is not the way to fight sleaze... by becoming sleaze. I look to the CoTDC as a good model for true Hacktivism.

Still... HBGary Federal... not surprising, but still... for shame.

 

[mugaliens]

Oh for god sakes, I was submittted to worse in a private hospital. The woman put into my room, was on morphine and an alarm would go off every few minutes when it stopped, the super loud alarm that would go off when that happened, not to mention the woman's screams.

The third time they checked on my wife and my son in less than two hours after we'd all fallen asleep post-birth (after having been up to 29 hrs) I said, "We're fine. Get out." Shortly thereafter the doc walked in, and I told him something along the line of "Get out, and don't return unless you have the hospital administrator in tow so I can tell both of you to get out at the same time."

I absolutely detest the incessant intrusions hospitals visit upon their patients. Heartbeeps? Why in the world do I need to hear them instead of getting the sleep I need? No thanks - I know my heart's beating - Shut it off!

Alarms and all sorts of monitoring stuff should be reserved for the nurse's station. If doctors or nurses need all the noises while they're in the room, there should be a single on-off switch which allows them to activate it when they enter, and deactivate it when they leave.

 

[turbo]

Oh for god sakes, I was submittted to worse in a private hospital. The woman put into my room, was on morphine and an alarm would go off every few minutes when it stopped, the super loud alarm that would go off when that happened, not to mention the woman's screams.

Manning is kept naked all night every night and is required to respond verbally every 5 minutes to his jailers' inquiries. If he is not nuts by now, He should be soon.

 

[Evo]

Manning is kept naked all night every night and is required to respond verbally every 5 minutes to his jailers' inquiries. If he is not nuts by now, He should be soon.

He's under suicide watch for threatening to kill himself, it's for his safety, he's in a jail cell, not a hotel room. Many people prefer to sleep in the nude anyway. I also read that he's usually allowed to sleep in boxers. Do you have something to back up the "required to respond verbally every 5 minutes during the night"? I read the article and his attorney didn't mention that, I doubt that is true. Not to mention he's allowed two blankets at night.

 

[mugaliens]

Wikileaks is not the issue in the case I'm rasing, it's the treason of an enlisted man.

Agreed. If they can legitimately (NO scapegoats) pin the leaks on someone or some people who was/were entrusted with those secrets, and swore to maintaining their secrecy, then by all means they should. When you're read into classified material, there is a special trust established beforehand, the violation of which endangers the entire system, and the consequences of violations which are extremely well explained beforehand.

I know some people believe there should never be any secrets at all. Having had an abundance of access to various secrets over the years, I know why they're secrets. It's not because the average U.S. citizen couldn't handle it, as many have, through countless military, government, and contracting jobs. Rather, it's because there are a few people who would misuse the information, either disseminating it to those who've not been cleared for access, or using it for more sinister means.

When someone has gone through the background investigations, has signed the non-disclosure agreements, and considering the sensitive and potentially damaging nature of the information involved, if they then choose to misdirect that information to those not cleared for access, then yes, they should be punished, and severely.

When they choose to upload it for the entire world to see in violation of all agreements and laws, then they should be charged with treason. As I understand it, the U.S. Justice Department is being very lenient by merely asking for a life sentence.

 

[nismaratwork]

Agreed. If they can legitimately (NO scapegoats) pin the leaks on someone or some people who was/were entrusted with those secrets, and swore to maintaining their secrecy, then by all means they should. When you're read into classified material, there is a special trust established beforehand, the violation of which endangers the entire system, and the consequences of violations which are extremely well explained beforehand.

I know some people believe there should never be any secrets at all. Having had an abundance of access to various secrets over the years, I know why they're secrets. It's not because the average U.S. citizen couldn't handle it, as many have, through countless military, government, and contracting jobs. Rather, it's because there are a few people who would misuse the information, either disseminating it to those who've not been cleared for access, or using it for more sinister means.

When someone has gone through the background investigations, has signed the non-disclosure agreements, and considering the sensitive and potentially damaging nature of the information involved, if they then choose to misdirect that information to those not cleared for access, then yes, they should be punished, and severely.

When they choose to upload it for the entire world to see in violation of all agreements and laws, then they should be charged with treason. As I understand it, the U.S. Justice Department is being very lenient by merely asking for a life sentence.

Agreed... he's lucky to be facing life in solitary... his sanity won't last anyway given the watch he'll be under.

I think it would be kinder to let him commit suicide, but I have no love for traitors.

 

[mugaliens]

Manning is kept naked all night every night and is required to respond verbally every 5 minutes to his jailers' inquiries. If he is not nuts by now, He should be soon.

I agree that's unusually excessive and cruel. Totally against anything and everything I ever signed up for 20 years ago.

If they're at all concerned about his safety, simply put him in a jacket, a rubber room, and raise the temperature a few degrees so that he won't shiver while sleeping, and give the traitor a humanitarian night's rest.

Anything else merely negatively reflects upon the integrity of the United States as a whole, while bringing into question, "Who the hell is in charge of these going-ons?" along with a side comment, "This isn't right. Ever."