News Wikileaks creates diplomatic crisis

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The leak of US embassy cables by Wikileaks has ignited a global diplomatic crisis, raising questions about the impact of exposing candid diplomatic discussions. While some argue that transparency could benefit nations like North Korea and Iran by revealing global sentiments towards them, others believe it undermines trust in diplomatic communications. There is speculation about potential resignations among diplomats, particularly Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, although many assert that no wrongdoing occurred and resignations are unlikely. Countries worldwide, including France, have condemned the leaks, framing them as attacks on state sovereignty, yet many governments continue to support the US. The situation highlights the delicate balance between transparency and the necessity of discreet diplomacy in international relations.
  • #241
russ_watters said:
Now regarding his crime itself. I alluded in my previous post to the Pentagon Papers' case potentially providing an "out" for Assange under the 1st Amendment. But after reading-up on that case (just the wiki), I found that I was wrong: the Courts did not rule that the 1st Amendment protected the New York Times from espionage charges: the case only dealt with the issue of prior restraint (whether the government could censor a story in advance of its publication). So I don't think Assange's status as a journalist - or not - is relevant.
Your argument would be valid if the Pentagon Papers was the only precedent governing such leaks. Do you know that to be true? Should Novak have been killed/arrested for outing Plame?

Logically, Assange is a facilitator. He received stolen, secret information that was not yet in the public domain and he put it in the public domain. In a way, he's like ...
...a newspaper that breaks a story based on a leak?
 
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  • #242
Gokul43201 said:
Your argument would be valid if the Pentagon Papers was the only precedent governing such leaks. Do you know that to be true?

...a newspaper that breaks a story based on a leak?

One which breaks the law that is. Very well pointed out Gokul.
 
  • #243
russ_watters said:
But whether you like the way these issues work in the real world, the way they work is the way they work.

Except when someone or a group of people dislike the way they work and decides to change the system.
 
  • #244
zomgwtf said:
One which breaks the law that is.
Not quite sure what you mean by that, but newspapers routinely publish classified information that they acquire from someone in the government who leaked it to them. Yet, in recent history, the worst I've seen a reporter suffer for that was Judith Miller's 3-month jail term for contempt of court.
 
  • #245
Someone in the government, who more than likely leaked it to advance a political or governmental agenda. Assange is a "rogue" agent outside of government.
 
  • #246
Gokul43201 said:
Not quite sure what you mean by that, but newspapers routinely publish classified information that they acquire from someone in the government who leaked it to them. Yet, in recent history, the worst I've seen a reporter suffer for that was Judith Miller's 3-month jail term for contempt of court.

There's always the caveat of intent to harm the nation... no?
 
  • #247
Gokul43201 said:
Not quite sure what you mean by that, but newspapers routinely publish classified information that they acquire from someone in the government who leaked it to them. Yet, in recent history, the worst I've seen a reporter suffer for that was Judith Miller's 3-month jail term for contempt of court.

Well, in the US and Europe, at least. There are plenty of places on Earth where journalists have to watch their backs.
 
  • #248
zomgwtf said:
There's always the caveat of intent to harm the nation... no?
I think not, though I think primarily since that would be very hard to establish (also, which nation?). You don't think the people at wikileaks believe that all this is ultimately for the greater good? That revealing to the public all the dirty backroom dealmaking between governments might force the dealmakers to think twice the next time they participate in something underhanded, expecting protection of secrecy (or somesuch)?
 
  • #249
Here's the opinion of another libertarian:

 
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  • #250
Gokul43201 said:
I think not, though I think primarily since that would be very hard to establish (also, which nation?). You don't think the people at wikileaks believe that all this is ultimately for the greater good? That revealing to the public all the dirty backroom dealmaking between governments might force the dealmakers to think twice the next time they participate in something underhanded, expecting protection of secrecy (or somesuch)?

Well I've read from various sources that Assange is quoted saying he intends to harm America. So that kinda sets the record straight on his intent does it not?
 
  • #251
zomgwtf said:
Well I've read from various sources that Assange is quoted saying he intends to harm America. So that kinda sets the record straight on his intent does it not?
I couldn't say without reading/hearing it. By harming some short term effort, he may believe he is saving the future. If you show me a link to those quotes, I might have a more educated response.
 
  • #252
russ_watters said:
1. If the US government believes that Wikileaks is in possession of additional documents as potentially damaging as the Afghan War Diary, it has the responsibility to go after Wikileaks with extreme measures, up to and including physical destruction of the Wikileaks servers and killing those involved in releasing the documents - if it believes that that could prevent further releases. That's how you have to deal with wartime espionage.
US government couldn't capture a real person (Laden) and you expect them to destroy information/data? Destorying wikileaks servers or capturing their members is not equivalent to destroying the confidential data. Information being released public is the least dangerous thing I would expect here knowing other possibilities such as selling it to unknown people if Wikileaks real intent was solely to harm the US.
 
  • #253
Exactly.

Pick up a phone.
Call China.
Give them the info ($ or free).
?
Profit.
 
  • #254
I'd been away from this thread for a long time and this may not be new, but if it is, I think it is relevant to some discussion way back in the early pages of the thread.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0619021420101206

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said on Monday the Obama administration was considering using laws in addition to the U.S. Espionage Act to possibly prosecute the release of sensitive government information by WikiLeaks.
...
Some legal experts have said it would be difficult for the Obama administration to prosecute WikiLeaks or its founder Julian Assange, who is an Australian citizen, for espionage.
...
"I personally authorized a number of things last week and that's an indication of the seriousness with which we take this matter and the highest level of involvement at the Department of Justice," [Holder] said.

He also declined to say whether the Obama administration could try to shut down the WikiLeaks site. The organization has had to switch to overseas web hosting services after Amazon.com last week terminated their arrangement.

"I don't want to get into what our capabilities are," Holder said. "We are looking at all the things we can do to try to stem the flow of this information."
 
  • #255
You know, a good analogy here I think is the printing press. One could certainly have made the argument at the time that the printing press, and the ability of people to interpret the bible for themselves, would have disastrous consequences. It could have been argued that such would lead to wide scale social destabilization, religious conflict, and the undermining of traditional structures of power, economy, and social order.
And such criticisms would have been spot on. However, from our modern viewpoint, the revolutionary spread of information was a net beneficial thing. One could argue that it lead to the decline of authoritarian religious power and the enlightenment.

I personally have always been an anti-pragmatist when it comes to evaluating the morality of a situation. That is because the long term consequences of actions can never be accurately predicted, and hardly any positive action can avoid having negative consequences for some. I think it's better to evaluate the morality of an individual action based on a priori principles, i.e, murder is wrong, truth is desirable, etc. There are of course, always shades of grey, and I am not going to go so far as saying things like troop movements or weapons schematics shouldn't be kept secret.

I hear from a lot of people that the transparency will make it harder for international systems to functions. To me, if things like bribes, torture, and realpolitik support for shady characters is necessary, perhaps the international system as it exists deserves to die. It is a very dark view of humanity that all these things are necessary, and furthermore that the public is better off not knowing. In a democracy (or republic), theoretically, choices are made based on accurate information. A lot of the information that came out highlights the real costs of our foreign policy; literally, in terms of money, ethically, in terms of what is being done in the name of the US, and perception wise, as far as how our actions are perceived by other countries. How can people make informed choices if they don't have a clear picture of what is occurring?
Increasingly, we deal with a government that claims individual citizens have little right to privacy. From monitoring conversations and financial transcations, to profiling "domestic extremists" for their political views, even to having images of our body available, the notion of personal privacy has changed. Many see it as hypocritical that those in highest office, acting theoretically as servants of the people and funded by our labor, have a double standard for themselves and the "common man."
History has shown that access to information can revolutionize society, and attempts to censor or stifle it fail in the long run. Perhaps the negative reaction is partially a fear of a world that is potentially on the brink of change.

On a final note, many have made ad hominem criticisms of the central character here, Julian Assange. It is often useful to turn a larger political debate into a discussion of one man. I do not believe that even if this man is killed or wikileaks is shut down, the issue of the internet changing what information is kept secret is going away. However, i have think many criticisms of the man are off base. I would like to submit this link to an interview, in which I believe he comes off as very thoughtful.

http://blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/an-interview-with-wikileaks-julian-assange/
 
  • #256
Burnsys said:
Well said.
For example,i think i have the right to know if the us gov, has a "http://46.59.1.2/cable/2007/12/07BUENOSAIRES2345.html"" who disguise themselves as "Independent journalists"

And if the "Average" people "cannot understand..." then from that to " the average people is not qualified to vote" is only a very small step.

this has bugged me since i first read it, and i think i now know why. sure, captive journalists are a concern to the Argentinian. but how many captive journalists does the US government have in the US?
 
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  • #257
More recent releases (I don't think these have been mentioned here yet):
A key Israeli cargo crossing for goods entering the Gaza Strip was rife with corruption, according to a U.S. diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks on Thursday

The June 14, 2006, cable, published Thursday by Norway's Aftenposten daily, says companies told U.S. diplomats they were forced to pay hefty bribes to get goods into Gaza. It was unclear whether the practice still continues.
...
Other companies, including Procter & Gamble, Caterpillar, Philip Morris, Westinghouse, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola, Aramex and Dell, had complained of corruption at the crossing, according to the cable.

It was not clear which companies had actually paid the bribes, though the document said Caterpillar executives refused to pay.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ntering-gaza-1.335585?localLinksEnabled=false

Israel told US officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis, according to US diplomatic cables published by a Norwegian daily on Wednesday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4009311,00.html

These releases, I think, shed a little more light on the role Israel has played in shaping the economic development of Gaza over the last handful of years.
 
  • #258
Gokul43201 said:
These releases, I think, shed a little more light on the role Israel has played in shaping the economic development of Gaza over the last handful of years.
This is the point of a blockade, no? The point is to cause hardship.
 
  • #259
Evo said:
This is the point of a blockade, no? The point is to cause hardship.
The Israeli government does acknowledge that their purpose is to cause the maximum hardship to the entire people inside the strip while making sure the international community does not diagnostic a "humanitarian crisis". First of all, this official stand is not necessarily the point of a blockade. The point of a blockage could be to make sure that no material usable for making weapons goes through. To cause maximum hardship means restricting food for instance. I guess you know that food supplies are short there. Do people use food to make weapons ?

Second, even if one would consider acceptable to restrict the supply of food in order to cause the maximum hardship possible, the use of the term "bribe" indicates illegal corrupt taxes by individual border agents. To provide pocket money to border agents is certainly never the official point of a blockade.

Once again, this is a perfectly meaningful "leak" : everybody knows, but no-one has a definite proof, therefore nobody can do anything to prevent it. And the situation remains unchanged for years or decades.
 
  • #260
The only reason I've ever heard from Israel is that the blockade is necessary to prevent movement of weapons and ammo into Gaza, so as to end the rocket attacks by Hamas. I've never heard that the point of the blockade was to bring the civilian population to its knees. So this is news to me.
 
  • #261
Gokul43201 said:
The only reason I've ever heard from Israel is that the blockade is necessary to prevent movement of weapons and ammo into Gaza, so as to end the rocket attacks by Hamas. I've never heard that the point of the blockade was to bring the civilian population to its knees. So this is news to me.

Well I suppose there's an official reason and an unofficial one. Especially in this case given the history of the area.

Officially, it could be to stem the flow of weapons.
Unofficially, it could be to bring the population to its knees.

The key with any situation such as this, is to justify what you are doing (official reason) in order to achieve the underlying motive (unofficial reason).

Of course, this is somewhat speculative and extremely difficult to prove. But the history of the area certainly lends itself to that sort of situation.
 
  • #262
Gokul43201 said:
The only reason I've ever heard from Israel is that the blockade is necessary to prevent movement of weapons and ammo into Gaza, so as to end the rocket attacks by Hamas. I've never heard that the point of the blockade was to bring the civilian population to its knees. So this is news to me.
Well, officially we have never heard anything different. Simply, the facts do not match. When some obscure group of french activists try to bring in plastic pipes to repair water wells, and Israel refuses their entry because the plastic pipes can be used to manufacture rockets, this does not make headlines within the US. Why is that so ?

If someone would like a reference to the above events I am mentioning, please just take them as an imaginary example. There are enough other occurrences so that, if they do not know already, one specific reference will not change much.
 
  • #263
Gokul43201 said:
These releases, I think, shed a little more light on the role Israel has played in shaping the economic development of Gaza over the last handful of years.
So far this is published, 2nd hand, only in some Norwegian paper? I'm skeptical until and unless we see the cables.
 
  • #264
mheslep said:
So far this is published, 2nd hand, only in some Norwegian paper? I'm skeptical until and unless we see the cables.

I agree with this statement.
 
  • #265
humanino said:
When some obscure group of french activists try to bring in plastic pipes to repair water wells, and Israel refuses their entry because the plastic pipes can be used to manufacture rockets, this does not make headlines within the US. Why is that so ?

I heard a good answer to that on a BBC (UK) radio feature on how international diplomacy really functions. A retired UK ambassador told the story, about a dinner held to honor the retirement of an Israeli ambassador to the US.

After the main event and speech making was done, somebody asked him privately what he thought his greatest achievement in Israeli-American relations had been.

His answer was: "I have convinced America that the words anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are synonyms."
 
  • #266
AlephZero said:
I heard a good answer to that on a BBC (UK) radio feature on how international diplomacy really functions. A retired UK ambassador told the story, about a dinner held to honor the retirement of an Israeli ambassador to the US.

After the main event and speech making was done, somebody asked him privately what he thought his greatest achievement in Israeli-American relations had been.

His answer was: "I have convinced America that the words anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are synonyms."
And that is an anecdote, not a fact. Let's be careful.
 
  • #267
So let's go facts first hand then (~30s googling)
http://www.aftenposten.no/spesial/wikileaksdokumenter/article3972840.ece
 
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  • #268
humanino said:
Do people use food to make weapons ?
No, but they do use food to buy weapons as well as use food to coerce their own populace into obeying them.
 
  • #269
russ_watters said:
No, but they do use food to buy weapons as well as use food to coerce their own populace into obeying them.
Do you propose to make sure each of them receives only the minimal amount of food and water to survive ? That's going to be costly in medics.

I have never heard of such events and would be interested to see the evidence.

Let me anticipate that you have the evidence and follow logically. If the principle of the blockade would work, they would have nobody to buy the weapons to. So either the principle of the blockade has failed, or they should be allowed to receive food.
 
  • #270
Is it not common knowledge?

Humanitarian aid supplies being held by gang lords (or whatever they're called) such as in Somalia?
 

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