Engineering Women in Engineering and Computer Science

[JakeBrodskyPE]

i think we're in a new kind of environment where women are now apart of the work field where it use to be dominated by men. we need a new approach to things.

I need to point out that the study of Physics is not unique in this regard. There are many fields where, although they're making inroads, women are encountering resistance from other quarters. We still have a societal issue with how we raise families. We still have issues dealing with how we handle the birth of a child.

It is worth recognizing that some endeavors are so difficult that only single people without the need to support a family can participate. People who consistently put in 80+ hour weeks are not well suited to raise children (some may actually manage to make it work, but they are few and far between).

The culture of many fields, physics being one of them, is that sometimes you do have to put in these long hours to make things go. Engineering is another such field. The military is yet another. I don't think it is the physical demands as they are mentally demanding of attention and time.

Our society does not have the cultural support for women who put in this kind of effort. Those who do succeed are usually not mothers. I would be curious if there are any studies that show some metrics of fatherhood and compare them to the "successful" men who make it big in endeavors such as I outlined above.

We have social, and honestly, biological issues. Men remain fertile longer than women. The ability to get ahead and then coast in a career while starting a family works better for men than it does for women. This is a problem that I do not believe legislation alone can fix.

 

[sweetpotato]

I'm a female engineer in an area that often involves high voltages, hands-on dirty work and days of physical labor. Sometimes I have trouble lifting a heavy object by myself and ask a male colleague to help. Equally often, a male colleague who is old and has poor eyesight asks me to decipher a tiny part number for him. Or, a male colleague who has bad knees or a bad back or is overweight can't physically do what I can. Sometimes I get tired during work and need to take a break. Sometimes my male colleague who has diabetes needs to take a break to measure his blood sugar and inject insulin. Everyone has physical and emotional limitations, not just women. To imply otherwise is one of the ways discrimination gets perpetuated.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I have nothing against women in engineering or anything technological field for that matter, I don't think your gender, race or religious views have anything to do with what is required of you. However I think it's a humongous joke that there are schemes that go out of their way to enlist more women into the field. What do we need to do that for? If someone wants to do it, then let them do it. I don't see why we need to attract a specific [race/gender/religion] to a certain field.

Discrimination can work both ways, like some people have mentioned in here. Now with some of these ******** laws in Australia requiring no discrimination, having worked in labour jobs, I find there are women who are on the job by virtue of the law that workplaces somehow need to integrate women. So the pay-rate is essentially the same, except as one can guess, it's generally the men who get stuck with the difficult jobs. Digging? No worries, you'll see 5 men around a hole digging away, whilst 2 women are at the opposite ends holding stop-go signs.

There's nothing wrong with hard work, but this is just a laughable scenario, add some practical jokes to it and it could be a comedy show. When I worked in a warehouse, it'd always be the guys who'd be assigned to do all the heavy-lifting, wrapping, manual handling. I don't care at all, I love doing it, but why should I be paid the same amount as someone else who is doing the easier work because they can't physically do the other stuff, but is there because the law allows them? If I were a manager, I'd definitely assign the men to do it as well, because it's not in my character to telling women to do the heavy-lifting and letting the men do whatever else, but it's not actually fair play.

Of course the workplace can ask a woman to do the same thing, but what's going to happen? Someone's going to get injured, there will be lawsuits, investigations, and the workplace will be fined for having a rubbish risk-assessment for allocating someone who couldn't do the work to do it despite them not being allowed to reject a woman who applied to do the work, even though she can't do it.

It applies increasingly in many different work environments, and it's largely because society is sexually confused, people can't seem to recognise there are things both genders can and can't do. In the sciences, this doesn't matter as much or at all because engineers and scientists rarely have to go around doing things that require tremendous manual labour; that's what labourers are there for.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

For every story like yours, I bet I can find a case where a woman working in a technical field was barred from doing something she is capable of because of discrimination.

And the point of this is? Discrimination works both ways. Also I'd like to see some examples of what you mean.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I'm a female engineer in an area that often involves high voltages, hands-on dirty work and days of physical labor. Sometimes I have trouble lifting a heavy object by myself and ask a male colleague to help. Equally often, a male colleague who is old and has poor eyesight asks me to decipher a tiny part number for him. Or, a male colleague who has bad knees or a bad back or is overweight can't physically do what I can. Sometimes I get tired during work and need to take a break. Sometimes my male colleague who has diabetes needs to take a break to measure his blood sugar and inject insulin. Everyone has physical and emotional limitations, not just women. To imply otherwise is one of the ways discrimination gets perpetuated.

I'm very interested to know as to what kind of "heavy objects" you're referring to here, specifically the weight of these objects and what is the "dirty work" and "days of physical labour"? It's good to know these things in its entirety because a lot of this is ambiguous and is dependent on the individual.

 

[lisab]

I'm very interested to know as to what kind of "heavy objects" you're referring to here, specifically the weight of these objects and what is the "dirty work" and "days of physical labour"? It's good to know these things in its entirety because a lot of this is ambiguous and is dependent on the individual.

Why does it matter what the objects are? The things sweetpotato mentioned are found in many work environments.

My last job sometimes involved maneuvering large rolls of paper into band saws. How heavy were they? Well, some of the stronger men could move them around if they really tried, but most couldn't budge them. The environment was dirty, greasy, hot, and dusty. No one of either gender particularly enjoyed that part of it. And why were we wrestling huge paper rolls? Because the rolls had to be a certain size to fit into the prototype treater we used in R&D. Running prototype equipment is a big part of R&D, doing projects frequently took weeks and weeks to complete, and often required significant physical labor.

 

[sweetpotato]

The "heavy objects"- for example, we use these DC power supplies that are about 50-60 lbs. No, there's no way I can lift that over my head.

The "hours of physical labor" refers to wiring and installing items such as these DC power supplies for 8+ hours a day when the workflow of the company requires it and the technicians who are primarily in charge of doing this are too busy.

The "dirty work" refers to working on old equipment covered with dust and mouse droppings, being in contact with grease, sawdust, glue, crawling into small dirty spaces (behind equipment), lying down on the floor wiring and installing equipment.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Why does it matter what the objects are? The things sweetpotato mentioned are found in many work environments.

My last job sometimes involved maneuvering large rolls of paper into band saws. How heavy were they? Well, some of the stronger men could move them around if they really tried, but most couldn't budge them. The environment was dirty, greasy, hot, and dusty. No one of either gender particularly enjoyed that part of it. And why were we wrestling huge paper rolls? Because the rolls had to be a certain size to fit into the prototype treater we used in R&D. Running prototype equipment is a big part of R&D, doing projects frequently took weeks and weeks to complete, and often required significant physical labor.

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

 

[sweetpotato]

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

I answered your question above.

However- just because a company should disallow certain practices or conditions doesn't mean they do. Even if they are "illegal". Regulation agencies such as OSHA don't come in every day checking up on workplace conditions and practices.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

The "heavy objects"- for example, we use these DC power supplies that are about 50-60 lbs. No, there's no way I can lift that over my head.

The "hours of physical labor" refers to wiring and installing items such as these DC power supplies for 8+ hours a day when the workflow of the company requires it and the technicians who are primarily in charge of doing this are too busy.

The "dirty work" refers to working on old equipment covered with dust and mouse droppings, being in contact with grease, sawdust, glue, crawling into small dirty spaces (behind equipment), lying down on the floor wiring and installing equipment.

50-60 lbs is not even a remotely heavy load, although by definition at a work place, it would be considered a "heavy" load and as such there are either tools required to maneuver them or several people to do it.

I don't mean to be rude, but oh boohoo, dusty, mouse droppings and greasy? If someone wants to do the work, I think they should not complain about it. I know it's not just me, as most of the work I do or have done in the past involves this kind of stuff, as it's our bread and butter, and I've never encountered any of the guys I work with complaining about it. If we're there for work, and we know what it entails, there's no whinging to tolerate, you get on with it. Triceps hurting? Tough, deal with it. Something's really too heavy, then use a tool or get others to lift it with you.

I frankly don't find any of the things you've mentioned even remotely overboard or difficult, and for me (and perhaps many others) it would seem like something that's welcoming. It's probably the reason why you see mainly men in jobs like the mechanic trade.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I answered your question above.

However- just because a company should disallow certain practices or conditions doesn't mean they do. Even if they are "illegal". Regulation agencies such as OSHA don't come in every day checking up on workplace conditions and practices.

I was actually replying to lisab in that post.

Yes I do know that these things don't happen as per the guidelines, but I also do know that some of these posts of "difficult" labour is largely exaggerated. Some people may find "dirty" environments difficult to deal with, whilst for others it's pretty stock standard. And more often than not, it's men that are less likely to be affected by it.

If you can't deal with the work, or don't like it, why do it?

 

[lisab]

It matters because what is heavy for some may not be for others, also depending on the country, and almost all of EU, the USA and Australia requires that for "heavy" objects, either it's a team-lift or people use tools to maneuver them. No, I really want to know, I don't take people's word for things when they claim it's [whatever]. Surely "heavy" should have some kind of quantity attributed to it.

"Heavy" here is generally any object that's > 20kg, or some unusual size or shape that is considered to be difficult to maneuver.

So when someone from one of these countries claims there were items that were ridiculously heavy but required in the workplace to be moved around, I question the details of this. 1) because companies are unlikely to allow the practice to continue for lengthy periods of times, 2) people generally slack off.

So how heavy was it?

Each roll had different dimensions and properties, so their weight would vary. But this gives an idea:

http://www.printingpressman.com/images/clamp-truck-paper.jpg

It's hard work maneuvering an object that size. Good communication, teamwork, and yes even a bit of brute strength are all necessary.

The work environment you speak of is typical of predictable, production-type work. R&D is quite a different beast. Nearly every day, you do non-routine tasks that don't have safety protocols worked out. It's not for everybody.

 

[sweetpotato]

50-60 lbs is not even a remotely heavy load, although by definition at a work place, it would be considered a "heavy" load and as such there are either tools required to maneuver them or several people to do it.

I don't mean to be rude, but oh boohoo, dusty, mouse droppings and greasy? If someone wants to do the work, I think they should not complain about it. I know it's not just me, as most of the work I do or have done in the past involves this kind of stuff, as it's our bread and butter, and I've never encountered any of the guys I work with complaining about it. If we're there for work, and we know what it entails, there's no whinging to tolerate, you get on with it. Triceps hurting? Tough, deal with it. Something's really too heavy, then use a tool or get others to lift it with you.

I frankly don't find any of the things you've mentioned even remotely overboard or difficult, and for me (and perhaps many others) it would seem like something that's welcoming. It's probably the reason why you see mainly men in jobs like the mechanic trade.

I think you're missing my point. I enjoy my job and don't find these things unreasonably difficult. That's why I think I am just as able to do my job as a man. Except for the "heavy lifting", which we have discussed already.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Each roll had different dimensions and properties, so their weight would vary. But this gives an idea:

http://www.printingpressman.com/images/clamp-truck-paper.jpg

It's hard work maneuvering an object that size. Good communication, teamwork, and yes even a bit of brute strength are all necessary.

The work environment you speak of is typical of predictable, production-type work. R&D is quite a different beast. Nearly every day, you do non-routine tasks that don't have safety protocols worked out. It's not for everybody.

I think that's incredibly silly. Look at the size of that?

Understandably the issue of a man vs woman moving something is rendered null and void in a scenario like that.

Clearly those kinds of objects are not meant to be moved by a single person. Why would anyone even want to bother unless it was just as a joke "amongst the guys" to see who's budging what.

Also note the forklift in use, probably the way that kind of item was meant to be moved.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

I think you're missing my point. I enjoy my job and don't find these things unreasonably difficult. That's why I think I am just as able to do my job as a man. Except for the "heavy lifting", which we have discussed already.

Then we're on the same page.

 

[lisab]

I think that's incredibly silly. Look at the size of that?

Understandably the issue of a man vs woman moving something is rendered null and void in a scenario like that.

Clearly those kinds of objects are not meant to be moved by a single person. Why would anyone even want to bother unless it was just as a joke "amongst the guys" to see who's budging what.

Also note the forklift in use, probably the way that kind of item was meant to be moved.

"Silly"? Yes they're large, aren't they?

"Joke amongst the guys" about moving large things? Not in my workplace; we're professional scientists and engineers and are expected to behave as such.

Yes I know there is a forklift in the pic. But now how do you get the roll from the forklift onto the bandsaw table? These kind of questions are solved every day when doing non-routine tasks.

With all due respect, you don't seem to have much experience with R&D.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

"Silly"? Yes they're large, aren't they?

"Joke amongst the guys" about moving large things? Not in my workplace; we're professional scientists and engineers and are expected to behave as such.

Yes I know there is a forklift in the pic. But now how do you get the roll from the forklift onto the bandsaw table? These kind of questions are solved every day when doing non-routine tasks.

With all due respect, you don't seem to have much experience with R&D.

I didn't claim to have experience in R&D, and neither do I have experience in R&D, that's just some kind of faulty assumption you're drawing.

However, I have worked as a labourer for a long time, and I don't need to have been in R&D to know how to move things around. Suddenly my physical ability is non-existent to move something heavy or my mental ability has diminished suddenly because I haven't worked in R&D?? Please get off your high horse "we're professional scientists and engineers yada yada"

If anyone here is lacking some understanding here, I think it's you. I'm going to assume you actually haven't worked in manual labour before? And I don't mean this silly example of trying to move this large roll onto a bandsaw.

To be honest, if you wanted to move this on to a bandsaw, you'd use a forklift. Either get a team lift to move it slightly so the forklift driver can lift it. Forklifts have high tilt rotations, this can easily be maneuvered onto a bandsaw. In fact, I thought you were joking when you first posed this question, but now I see you actually posed it because you have no idea what goes on in manual labour. These kinds of tasks are pretty much stock standard. They may not involve moving moving a roll onto a bandsaw specifically, but it could be anything from removing a 500kg truck axle mounted on a pallet of 3, onto a truck which is loaded with other items. There is plenty of grunt work involved, so don't think that just because you've worked in R&D that you believe you've experience some kind of labour difficulty that no one else has.

Unless you've been digging for days on-end, working 15-hour shifts that can rival an intense gym workout, don't blab about the difficult a team of scientists had with moving a roll onto a bandsaw, honestly? How heavy is that roll anyway?

Just the idea of "professional scientists and engineers" standing around talking about how they had labour difficulties moving a heavy object is enough to elicit laughter from the grunt blokes who do these kinds of things on a daily basis. In fact, if it weren't for your status on this board, I would have thought you were trolling.

Edit: There are plenty of ways to get that roll onto a bandsaw table, obviously I'm not going to parrot out solutions here because I don't know dimensions, nor weights of these objects and can only guess. What you're alluding to here is not some engineering solution, but a very bone-headed job task that any band of labourers should be able to do or do on a regular basis.

 

[mariexotoni]

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

 

[NewtonianAlch]

i think some people become too condescending on these physics forums...why so attitudey?

I think any forum has its share of "moments".

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Here's something that was designed by an R&D (historically speaking) team, and man-handled by a labour force.

I wonder what the men who built this thought of moving a large roll onto a band-saw, probably couldn't because they had no experience in R&D.

I don't mean to be "attitudey", but these kinds of statements are going to annoy the hell out of anyone who has worked as a labourer doing the hard yards.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2k1.jpg

 

[mariexotoni]

Tempting, but I won't..

anyways, i was just referring to whomever was getting after sweetpotato about what she thought was heavy. we can never understand the point of view of someone else. especially via internet. and some people take these forums wayyyyyyyy too seriously and I think they just want to argue. I'm not here for that.

 

[NewtonianAlch]

Tempting, but I won't..

anyways, i was just referring to whomever was getting after sweetpotato about what she thought was heavy. we can never understand the point of view of someone else. especially via internet. and some people take these forums wayyyyyyyy too seriously and I think they just want to argue. I'm not here for that.

Ah well, I definitely didn't come here to argue! I got distracted after seeing the topic title thinking it could be interesting, and now I've lost the plot on Laplace transforms, lol.

 

[mariexotoni]

lol okay good. but on a lot of the forums I've talked on, in the responses, people just have a they know everything attitude. I think it's fine to have a stance, but there's no need to be rudee. come on! this is physicsforums!

 

[NewtonianAlch]

lol okay good. but on a lot of the forums I've talked on, in the responses, people just have an act like they know everything attitude. I think it's fine to have a stance, but there's no need to be rudee. come on! this is physicsforums!

Absolutely, we should be working on an equation or something!

 

[mariexotoni]

so true!

 

[j3141592t]

Your reasoning that women leave the field of engineering after 5 or so years is due to emotions is exactly the kind of sexist viewpoint that drives us away. I have been in the civil engineering industry for 6 years, and I am extremely frustrated with the sexist, demeaning, and condescending attitudes of men, and even other non-engineer women, in the workplace. Time and time again, I have been given the most menial and mundane tasks. I have even been given secretarial tasks while my male counterparts without engineering degrees are performing more technical tasks. Even though I have more experience, the same skill set, and the same education, I am paid much less and receive little, if any respect from coworkers or subordinates. I hope that other engineering disciplines are not quite so closed minded, as I am making an industry change very soon. Being a woman in the Good Old Boy workplace of consulting civil engineering firms is miserable and incredibly boring. I do work in Texas, and that may have something to do with it.
To comment on the ease of getting jobs, I would agree that women, especially good looking women, do get jobs quite easily in this field. I almost always have multiple offers when changing jobs; however, I think this has more to do with the men wanting a cute engineer to work with rather than them wanting to utilize my skills.

 

[j3141592t]

Honestly, I haven't seen anything that looked like overt or even subversive discrimination of women in engineering. I think too many women start this field, and then drop out for a variety of reasons that have little to do with the practice of engineering, and everything to do with finding something they enjoy more.

Heavy industry technical challenges (not just engineering, but also the technical and trade work) appeal to many men for much of the same reason that it appeals to boys. It's big, dirty, noisy, and potentially dangerous. This is exactly the sort of thing that turns off most women. I know a few women who work on water and waste-water plants. It is routine, dirty, noisy, and dangerous work with approximately 10% women or less on the plant floor. The closer you get to the office, the more likely it is you'll find more women.

I know women with engineering backgrounds, and most tend toward the management side of things as soon as they can get enough experience to legitimately take charge. I know only a very few who stick to the raw engineering side of things for year after year because they like it. Yet I know many men who seem to really enjoy the innovative and creative side of building bigger, smaller, or really efficient things.

Those who suggest that this is cultural miss an important point: I think there may be more to this than meets the eye.

In addition, your attitude that women shy away from "dangerous" or "dirty" tasks is rediculous. I have crawled into sanitary sewer manholes. I have scaled water tanks. I am willing, able, and driven to do all the tasks that are required of me; however, it is the men I work with that consistently try to dissuade me from doing these things.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

In addition, your attitude that women shy away from "dangerous" or "dirty" tasks is rediculous. I have crawled into sanitary sewer manholes. I have scaled water tanks. I am willing, able, and driven to do all the tasks that are required of me; however, it is the men I work with that consistently try to dissuade me from doing these things.

If you have really been there and done that, then you probably have a narrow minded employer who is probably also narrow minded about a great many other things. It is time to look elsewhere.

It poor practice to take your particular situation and to assume that every other place must be the same. Don't judge my motives and experiences on based upon the acts of others.

 

[clarkkenny]

I think I know where you’re coming from, but businesses these days are very aware of the fact that they have to bring gender diversity in their staff and try to maintain a balance between male and female employees. My suggestion is, if you are interested in something, go for it without fear!

Are you only interested in computer engineering and computer science or are you open to other IT fields as well? Many women have also carved out successful careers as programmers. If that’s something you’d like to consider, then do take a look at CollegeAmerica's computer programming degree!

 

[jk]

If you have really been there and done that, then you probably have a narrow minded employer who is probably also narrow minded about a great many other things. It is time to look elsewhere.

It poor practice to take your particular situation and to assume that every other place must be the same. Don't judge my motives and experiences on based upon the acts of others.

That applies to you as well. It is poor practice to assume that because you haven't experienced something (due to your particular demographic perhaps, or just sheer luck, or the region you work in etc.) that it is not widespread when others are saying that it is widespread from THEIR experience