Worst instructional tool of all time

[TVP45]

I took a Statistics course on a program similar to webassign (at least what i think it is) last year and generally fared OK, but I really do worry about any science student being able to learn without lots of hands-on experiment. Does it have any provision for reaching students with auditory or kinesthetic learning styles?

 

[Locrian]

Overall, in successful companies, the ones who make the decisions don't care about the calculation details; all they need and want to know is what the result is so they can make informed decisions for the overall benefit and vision of the company.

We have very different experiences, likely due to being in different situations. The firm I worked at intended to patent successful work. To do so (and to make it stick!) required careful record keeping.

I am having a hard time accepting that the scribbled nonsense I'm getting from the students, followed by a goofy, usually incorrect, circled number apparently meant to be the answer, is a healthy way to solve problems in real life situations.

On the other hand, I have to admit. . . repeated requests followed by threats that are followed by poor grades haven't changed the students habits. What else can I do to motivate them? In the end it is well understood in the department that we're supposed to pass at least 95% of them, and really it's a huge ordeal if they don't all get through. They seem aware of this. Further, they seem more than happy to pay whatever it costs, and don't balk for a moment at the money their parents are dropping on the business.

So why do I care? I do feel strongly about the situation, but I suspect I should just let my reservations about the system drift away for, oh, 18 or so years. . .

 

[mathwonk]

this comment, sadly, is all too true and too common.

but do not despair. there are excellent students in every class. do not be discouraged by the poor ones, the lazy, the uninterested, ...keeping ones enthusiasm and high standards preserves the quality of your course for those who can appreciate them.still you must survive, so manage to mute the outcry from the hoi polloi in some way that allows you still to rest at night.

 

[CPL.Luke]

for lower level physics and math the requirement that students show a of there work is bordering on the ludicrous, when the problem takes all of 2 steps to solve and uses formulas that arefresh in the minds of the students.

I remember on some assignments being asked t solve 20 or so problems that were all variations of the same problem, again the derivatives, integrals and algebra could be done in ones head, while writing down the occasional intermediate step, for some graders I've seen the required number of steps in order to get credit get to the point where you would have to write down the result of applying the distributive property.

If your curious as to why smart students become disinterested it is because of that practice being overly enforced in the lower level courses.

at my school the department hires a certain number of undergraduate (or grad students who want extra cash) graders who essentially are given the solutions from the professor and are told how to grade, if a student feels their solution is correct or they weren't graded fairly most profs will hear them out.

although for the lower division courses they usually rely on programs like web assign, I refuse to use those or show silly steps in a problem, as once you get to the upper division courses the textbooks are going to start jumping through multiple manipulations at a time and if you can't kep up with that you'll fall behind.

one interesting trend I've noticed among physics majors is that the ones who do very well in the upper divisions are the ones who did poorly in the lower divisions, these are the people who won't take notes in class, and the ones who usually answer the most questions.

similarly if a prof pulls out a powerpoint for any physics or math class for any reason other than to show graphs or things like that I won't go to the class, as it may make it easier for the professor to show derivations, but I could get that out of the book much faster and more easily.

One good use of technology however is the publishing of lecture notes by a professor on a website, Some don't like doing this as they think it discourages people from coming to class, however going to the class your free from having to take notes (why rely on something that you wrote in the course of an hour, when you can use what the lecturer used to give the lecture, and spent several hours preparing)
partial credit is important when numerics are given as calculators can be used incorrectly and such, also in upper division when the problems can take a few hours f constant manipulation to get, bu of course its good to be able to get the answer right every time.

 

[Asphodel]

but do not despair. there are excellent students in every class. do not be discouraged by the poor ones, the lazy, the uninterested, ...

keeping ones enthusiasm and high standards preserves the quality of your course for those who can appreciate them.

Managing to avoid converting the former into the latter seems to be the greater challenge.

 

[TVP45]

for lower level physics and math the requirement that students show a of there work is bordering on the ludicrous, when the problem takes all of 2 steps to solve and uses formulas that arefresh in the minds of the students.

For what it's worth. In many industry projects, all important steps must be shown in calculations. A fairly simple FEA, say a shaft in torsion, will usually result in a 6-10 page backup which might be paper or digital. Obviously, things like the distribution property don't count as a step, but even simple formulas are typically shown. In the case of very obvious points, the calculation may show an eyeball. You cannot imagine the nightmare (or expense) of having a product fail and being unable to explain why. I'm a genuine OF but I consider the loss of dimensional analysis in many schools as a catastrophe.

When I took E&M, it was under a fellow who had Jackson as his adviser, and there was a set of problems - maybe 40 or 50 - that Jackson had never solved and none of his students had either (apparently). We worked on some of these and had available copies of previous student's efforts. I think only one problem got finished during the two semesters, but several went from maybe 50% to 60% or 70%. Then our efforts were filed away for the next round. So, there is value in partial work, but only with good documentation.

 

[stewartcs]

We have very different experiences, likely due to being in different situations. The firm I worked at intended to patent successful work. To do so (and to make it stick!) required careful record keeping.

Internal record keeping to backup your "correct answer" is definitely important, especially when filing patents. Regardless, you still want a correct answer - in any industry.

I am having a hard time accepting that the scribbled nonsense I'm getting from the students, followed by a goofy, usually incorrect, circled number apparently meant to be the answer, is a healthy way to solve problems in real life situations.

You should have a hard time accepting incorrect answers as they are incorrect! When I say "correct answer" I don't mean some random selection of a multiple choice question that just happens to be right. I mean actually doing the work an arriving at the correct answer using whatever tools you have learned throughout your educational process.

CS

 

[TVP45]

Internal record keeping to backup your "correct answer" is definitely important, especially when filing patents. Regardless, you still want a correct answer - in any industry.



You should have a hard time accepting incorrect answers as they are incorrect! When I say "correct answer" I don't mean some random selection of a multiple choice question that just happens to be right. I mean actually doing the work an arriving at the correct answer using whatever tools you have learned throughout your educational process.

CS

You make a good point. At the end of the day, only correct answers (not necessarily the same as exact ones) count. Without knowing you, I believe I would be able to trust your work simply because of your attitude.

 

[mr_coffee]

I remember freshman year in physics mechanics, we would have our whole floor doing the web works and one person would take turns submitting the answers, in the end we almost all got perfects on all the homeworks but it was about 20 of us all working together hah, fun times.

Usually the testers were the kids who didn't do any of the work, but still wanted answers so they would be our test dummies.

Its interesting, it might have been the school or the professor or the fact that I took half the course over again but the first time around I took physics E&M i had a 40% average, then I took it again, with a different professor not using web works, and I had a 98% average after my final, I was #1 in my class. He was a good professor and actually taught us things.

 

[G01]

Mastering Physics is used at my school, and I am not a fan. When I tutor, I realize that many problems students have are with Mastering Physics and not the physics itself. For instance, as mentioned above, rounding errors are common losses of points with mastering physics, but is a point deduction for rounding really called for, especially if you still understood the physics in the problem?

 

[mgiddy911]

I agree with G01's comment, in that the various computer/online grading/homework things like webassign and mastering physics do not do a good job of evaluating the physics that you know. What they do do well is tell you that you rounded wrong or forgot to carry the four. Interestingly enough, my freshmen professor for physics always encouraged us to round things to make calculation easy. In the mechanics portion he said to use g=10 m/s because its simply easier than 9.8. He could do all sorts of math in his head, but he sued a lot of rounding and approximation, rarely did he says the answer is exactly 12.486 ohms..