Would you eat brainless animals?

[feathermoon]

What about lobsters? They do not have a central brain per se but rather a simple neural network that allows its body to respond to the environment. Does this constitute a 'brainless' animal?

Actually, yea. I draw my veggie line at insects. Arthopods have just fused ganglia, right? I tell myself this anyway: I haven't and probably won't be eating crab or grasshoppers anytime soon.

 

[vertyu]

Sounds quite creepy. I'm not sure if I'd eat. I hope that bacteria, or, maybe plants could be developed that produce aminoacids cheaply. I would eat it even it was some strange, tastless gooey. As long as it's cheap, I'd eat it. Add some spices and it's good for me.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Sounds quite creepy. I'm not sure if I'd eat. I hope that bacteria, or, maybe plants could be developed that produce aminoacids cheaply. I would eat it even it was some strange, tastless gooey. As long as it's cheap, I'd eat it. Add some spices and it's good for me.

If amino acids were all we needed we would have invented near-limitless artificial food decades ago.

 

[vertyu]

If amino acids were all we needed we would have invented near-limitless artificial food decades ago.

Well, if you eat relatively cheap plant-based foods and aminoacids that are not present in these plants, then aren't you getting all the nutrients you need?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Well, if you eat relatively cheap plant-based foods and aminoacids that are not present in these plants, then aren't you getting all the nutrients you need?

No, there are only 20 types of amino acids and all they form are proteins. Human nutrition has incredibly complex requirements that haven't even been completely identified. The best way to remain healthy is to eat a varied diet.

 

[vertyu]

No, there are only 20 types of amino acids and all they form are proteins. Human nutrition has incredibly complex requirements that haven't even been completely identified. The best way to remain healthy is to eat a varied diet.

I know about 20 amino acids. Most of them are either produced by your body, or are present in cheap plants. Just few of them are present only in meat or eggs/milk, but not in cheap plants. If you think that I thought that our mammalian organisms require only aminoacids, you're very wrong.

The question is, do you really need meat, if you eat a variety of plant foods, vegan foods, plus pure aminoacids that you need? For example you get all the plants, and plant-based foods/nutrients that can be produced relatively cheap. The few remaining aminoacids are eaten in pure form, unlike meat, that contains in addition to these aminoacids a lot of other nutrients, vitamins, minerals, fats etc.

I mean, can you eat cheap vegan foods with pure, artificially produced aminoacids, and remain healthy?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I know about 20 amino acids. Most of them are either produced by your body, or are present in cheap plants. Just few of them are present only in meat or eggs/milk, but not in cheap plants. If you think that I thought that our mammalian organisms require only aminoacids, you're very wrong.

That was the impression your post gave. Meat and eggs are an excellent source of protein and thus amino acids.

The question is, do you really need meat, if you eat a variety of plant foods, vegan foods, plus pure aminoacids that you need? For example you get all the plants, and plant-based foods/nutrients that can be produced relatively cheap. The few remaining aminoacids are eaten in pure form, unlike meat, that contains in addition to these aminoacids a lot of other nutrients, vitamins, minerals, fats etc.

I mean, can you eat cheap vegan foods with pure, artificially produced aminoacids, and remain healthy?

You can have a perfectly healthy vegan diet yes, many vegans practice this as standard.

 

[Tea Jay]

Its not about the prey species' sentience as much as its about me being a carnivore.

I do not think a Lion or a Tiger is evil, or doing anything wrong when it eats a deer or a farmer.

They are carnivorous, and evolved to eat meat.

If PETA, etc, wants the carnivores all killed to avoid them eating prey, it would make just as much sense.

Why say that one species, say, Tigers, are no longer allowed to eat meat, because its unfair and cruel to their prey?

What about Chimpanzees and Baboons, etc? They eat meat...Should we make them eat only plant matter?

Humans? Should we ONLY try to change what humans eat? Is there some reason that its OK for a Zebra to be torn apart by a pride of lions, but not ok for a human to whack a chicken?

Why are they prejudiced about humans?

Is it just because we can THINK about that zebra, and decide that maybe we feel bad for it...and go have a banana instead?

So, if a lion is not ABLE TO THINK about the zebra, other than as a striped bag of meat, perhaps the lion is not sentient in a way that we hold ourselves to.

So, if we EAT a lion, we are therefore not eating a sentient being.

If we DO consider the lion to be sentient, then we consider it to be evil, as it chooses its own welfare over the zebra's,and would murder the zebra for the sake of a meal.

So, if the lion is murdering the zebra for a meal, then we are murdering a chicken for a meal (OK, we mostly hire a hitman, etc...).

If its wrong for the lion, then its wrong for us.

If its ok for the lion, then its ok for us.

 

[vertyu]

You can have a perfectly healthy vegan diet yes, many vegans practice this as standard.

Usually it's not cheap though. If you want to avoid milk and eggs, then you need some relatively expensive suppliments/plants/algae. I'm talking about cheap vegan diet, something that can be afforded even by poor people. Something as cheap as potato, maize, or wheat. And maybe a bit more expensive, such as pepper and cheap nuts.

Would such a diet with pure remaining aminoacids be perfectly healthy?

And being perfectly healthy is still debated, especially when in many cases there is no cheap and easy vegan diet, and people end up on more simple, cheap diet, and don't get everything they need in needed amounts.

I would personally not oppose if meat would become highly taxed for environmental and ethical reasons, but only if a cheap alternative to meat would exist. It could be environmentally friendly and ethically produced eggs plus milk, and bacteria/plant produced aminoacids. That would require genetic engineering to produce such bacteria or plant.

Isn't the whole idea behind artificial, in vitro meat, and in this case this brainless chicken, to resolve ethical problems? A cheap alternative that replaces meat, the main source of essential aminoacids? Well, in many cases also environmental and affordability reasons.

I mean that aminoacid gooey I was talking about can give us a world with ethically and environmentally friendly produced diet that is also cheap? Assuming people would agree to stop eating meat, or at least tax it so much that most people would stop eating meat.

I kind of assumed that everything I typed in these few last posts was obvious and mentioned bacteria/plant produced aminoacids as an alternative, because that's what this thread is about: a more ethically produced source of essential aminoacids.

 

[vertyu]

Going back a little bit.

If amino acids were all we needed we would have invented near-limitless artificial food decades ago.

Wrong, scientists have been working on producing these 20 aminoacids for long. Although they have been synthesizing these for decades, there is not cheap method that could produce near-limitless amounts. There are many applications that would benefit from cheap production methods.http://www.chem.wisc.edu/areas/organic/studsemin/rosen/Rosen-abs.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strecker_amino_acid_synthesis

Well, if you eat relatively cheap plant-based foods and aminoacids that are not present in these plants, then aren't you getting all the nutrients you need?

No, there are only 20 types of amino acids and all they form are proteins. Human nutrition has incredibly complex requirements that haven't even been completely identified. The best way to remain healthy is to eat a varied diet.

The question is not very unambiguously formed. It depends on how cheap these plant-based foods are.

If we're talking "western-world, above poverty line" relatively cheap, then answer to this question is yes. You get all the nutrients you need from the plant-based foods (except for few remaining essential aminoacids, because they are present only in expensive and often hard to get plant-based products). But in this case you get them from artificially produced cheap supplements.

If we're talking relatively cheap for most of world's population, then the answer is no.

And again, purely vegan diet is a debated subject. In terms of health too. It's not a proven fact that is it perfectly healthy, at least not for all people. In addition, vegan diet foods may be hard to get, and expensive for poor people.

So if we take into consideration that a vegan diet may not always be perfectly healthy for any and everybody, then the answer is: it depends.

 

[Tea Jay]

If it helps, they are developing MEAT (Muscle tissue) that they can grow WITHOUT AN ANIMAL.

Essentially just growing the part we eat, and not the rest.

It would be akin to Cows bearing fruit, and we just pick the cow berries and eat them...but we don't eat the COW.

:D

Again, the problem is that a vegan diet works fine for a yuppie in Greenwich village, etc, but is not affordable enough to be sustained by poor people.

So, just like we need to excuse the lion, we need to cut everyone else a break who eats what they can...and its not always enough. Many of the malnourished poor ALREADY can't afford meat, and live on a primarily vegetarian diet. They are MALNOURISHED as a result - protein is expensive. They resort to bushmeat, etc...which in some cases means eating endangered species, because they are STARVING.

If people could ship them nutritious and delicious vegan supplement pills, and they were cheaper than the veggies they grew on their farms, etc, say free, I'm sure they could be convinced to swallow them instead of a lemur or whatever. Eggs are a reasonable protein supply though, and if they can avoid eating the critters that LAY the eggs, that helps them a lot.

 

[vertyu]

Yes, that meat growing without an animal is quite an interesting concept. I know I'd buy it if the price is reasonable. Something like twice the price of normal meat.

 

[feathermoon]

The disinformation in this last page is staggering. Plenty of non-meat sources contain complete proteins. Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy. Vegan and vegetarian diets are easily affordable (unless you consider those who don't pay for food at all, beggars make bad choosers) and easy IF you take the time to figure out what you're doing. Poor people are hardly malnourished because they specifically cannot afford meat.

 

[feathermoon]

Its not about the prey species' sentience as much as its about me being a carnivore.

I do not think a Lion or a Tiger is evil, or doing anything wrong when it eats a deer or a farmer.

They are carnivorous, and evolved to eat meat.

If PETA, etc, wants the carnivores all killed to avoid them eating prey, it would make just as much sense.

Why say that one species, say, Tigers, are no longer allowed to eat meat, because its unfair and cruel to their prey?

What about Chimpanzees and Baboons, etc? They eat meat...Should we make them eat only plant matter?

Humans? Should we ONLY try to change what humans eat? Is there some reason that its OK for a Zebra to be torn apart by a pride of lions, but not ok for a human to whack a chicken?

Why are they prejudiced about humans?

Is it just because we can THINK about that zebra, and decide that maybe we feel bad for it...and go have a banana instead?

So, if a lion is not ABLE TO THINK about the zebra, other than as a striped bag of meat, perhaps the lion is not sentient in a way that we hold ourselves to.

So, if we EAT a lion, we are therefore not eating a sentient being.

If we DO consider the lion to be sentient, then we consider it to be evil, as it chooses its own welfare over the zebra's,and would murder the zebra for the sake of a meal.

So, if the lion is murdering the zebra for a meal, then we are murdering a chicken for a meal (OK, we mostly hire a hitman, etc...).

If its wrong for the lion, then its wrong for us.

If its ok for the lion, then its ok for us.

Ignoring the logical flaws in your argument and the crazy theories, one has to wonder where this post is even coming from.

 

[vertyu]

The disinformation in this last page is staggering. Plenty of non-meat sources contain complete proteins. Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy. Vegan and vegetarian diets are easily affordable (unless you consider those who don't pay for food at all, beggars make bad choosers) and easy IF you take the time to figure out what you're doing. Poor people are hardly malnourished because they specifically cannot afford meat.

If you eat milk and eggs, usually it's enough. I don't know where you live, but here in Europe good vegan diet in not cheap. Significantly more expensive than non-vegan diet. 70 euros is enough for one month, but vegan needs to buy expensive nuts and expensive fruits and other expensive products. You would need around 200 euros every month.

In poor countries people eat very cheap food, they may spend around 20 dollars for food for whole month.

And the Internet is full with vegan propaganda, because all these people need to tell everyone how superior they are.

At the same time if you read their experiences, many tell how they feel weaker, get colds more often etc. Pregnant mothers may put their child into danger because of their stupid hobby.

 

[B.E.M]

I don't see brainless meat as cruelty, but I do have a concern that finding a substitute for animals could mean just less room for animals in a human dominated world.

Put it another way, what if we demanded the meat of endangered animals, grown free range, in our burgers. Would we be making them extinct or would we be assuring they were as successful (at survival) as cows and sheep?

Im very much in favor of free range as a moral concept, Not eating meat does not necessarily make the lives of animals better, but if you do eat meat you can at least take responsibility those lives you exploit.