Written off Roswell some years ag

  • #26
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by zoobyshoe
The memo about the eight sided
disc tethered to a weather bal-
loon is news to me. This would
make it terrestrial and more
likely than not Russian, since
the Army hid it away so quickly.
I had seen this memo before but had nearly forgotten about it since it conflicts with both sides of the story. On my first reading of this [years ago] I asssumed that this was probably an early cover story; since this also does not agree with the original Army reports. I don't know what to think of this...


1947 was, I believe, the year the
Russians built a copy of the B-29
long range bomber. This would
have enabled them to reach most
of the US from across the Bering
Straits. They could have deployed
these balloons with discs. Maybe
the discs were full of sensors for
spying or maybe the balloons were
supposed to release them so they
would crash and start rumors of
an invasion from outer space. Hard
to say.

The thought that bothers me is,
if it was an attempt to generate
terror they might well have put
some genetically messed up family
on board the one that crashed at
Roswell to pass as aliens.

I have always thought the alien
in the alien autopsy looked like
some kind of deformed person,
rather than an out and out Craig
Reardon special effects thing.
If you ever saw the movie Freaks you'll know how
bizarre people can turn out.

-Zooby
The official explanationS for the bodies are of course the test dummies - not used until 5 years later - and the victim of a high altitude parachute jump gone wrong. There was a test pilot who jumped from something like 100,000 feet. His head was said to be double its normal size due to an injury. I need to check my facts on this one thought since I am not sure of the date.
 
  • #27
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The short dummies were actually
dropped almost 10 years later.
The guy with the swollen head was
also alot later.

It is true that people's memories
can get really mixed up and lump
things together. However the
stories of the dead alien bodies
and the one who didn't die could
be accounted for by a hoax per-
petrated by the Russian Govmnt
with all the means they had at
their disposal.

If what you say about the north
African discs is true this becomes
a greater possibility. It is also
something the US government may
not have cleared up to this day.
 
  • #28
Ivan Seeking
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More to come. I have discovered quite a few interesting facts.
 
  • #29
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Hoover doc debunked!

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the [unreadable] case the army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination
---- EJ Hoover

Back when this thread was active I was doing some research on this statement. I will cite the specific docs later if needed [I accidentally deleted my research notes], but for now suffice it to say that all information can be found in pdf’s 1 and 2 in the FBI, UFO files.

I am now convinced that Zooby is right: In the memo cited, it is clear that Hoover was asking for access to the phony disks recovered. Another memo references this statement by Hoover and makes clear that the other case referenced that was not clear, the La case, is in fact the Louisiana case. In this case a prank saucer was found and the FBI had record of it.

Note that this quote is cited in virtually all of the current Roswell literature, but you heard it debunked here first. Thanks for the prodding Zooby!

Next, there is another interesting part to this story. In the past I have never studied the crank saucer stories because I was not interested in the hoaxes. A careful reading of these events is really quite striking. In addition to some cheesy hoaxes, there were also quite a number of well crafted saucers, about 24” in diameter, coming down all around the country. On a number of occasions the professional appearance of the retrieved objects was noted and the descriptions of these craft are very similar. Usually they contain some simple electronics with at least one vacuum tube. The most interesting part is that they had no means of propulsion. They were either being dropped or flung. Many contained rags soaked with turpentine or some other source of fire. A number either caused fires – such as the one in Van Nuys, Ca.- or they landed in peoples yards or in the street in flames. At least one had USSR painted inside of the saucer.

After some consideration of the FBI docs, one begins to wonder who but the US military could have been the source of these phony saucers. I don’t mean to start another conspiracy theory, but the FBI reports are quite striking. Perhaps this is why Hoover was interested in phony saucers?

This was just my impression. This is not an assertion.
 
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  • #30
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Fascinating!

I look forward to seeing a photo of the clarifying memo. (Remember: I cannot access pdf, adobe, java)

Was the USSR found painted inside one of the saucers in English or Cyrillic script (CCCP)? Makes a huge difference.

-Zooby
 
  • #31
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Fascinating!

I look forward to seeing a photo of the clarifying memo. (Remember: I cannot access pdf, adobe, java)

Was the USSR found painted inside one of the saucers in English or Cyrillic script (CCCP)? Makes a huge difference.

-Zooby
I will try to post these later tonight if I have time; the reading of these memos is slow and tedious. I didn't spot the appropriate memos on the first [quick] pass.

The letters indicated were USSR.

What strikes me first are two possibilities: First, perhaps there was a toy of some kind being used. This seems unlikely since the flying saucer idea was only one month old [June of '47 - Kevin Arnold] when this started in July. Next, if it was a toy flung by kids then somewhere in the FBI files this should be indicated. It will take me some weeks to read all of the files. For now, I doubt this was something found on store shelves. The professional and consistent appearance of many of these saucers would then seem to rule out kids or even drunken goodtimers as hoaxers.

Next, it could have been the Soviets or some other enemy of the US at the time trying to create panic. Since radar was being used, I don't see US airspace regularly being invaded by Russian aircraft. I guess they could have been dropped from a high altitude spy plane [Soviet equivalent of the U2?]. Another possibility is that operatives on the ground were flinging these things. Also, they could have been dropped from balloons; perhaps the electronics were a timing device. In the reading I have done so far, the purpose of the circuitry has not been discussed.

Then of course we have the possibility that the military was doing this. What comes to mind for me is the "Red Scare" and the beginning of the cold war just a few years later. Also, true believers might argue that this was done to discredit the genuine saucer stories...and without more information we might speculate endlessly. Nonetheless, these are the only possibilities that I have managed thus far.

Any other ideas?
 
  • #32
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I don't know if you grew up in snow country, but when I was a kid there was a universally used thing that was made of aluminum, about three feet in diameter, round and dished. You sat in it and slid down snowy hills. There were two leather handles at the edges 180 degrees apart to hold on. The edge was curled over to form a lip. If you took the handles off and put two together like a clamshell, you'd have a very professional looking lenticular disc. Eventually they started making them out of plastic. (The plastic ones sucked.) I haven't the vaguest idea when these things came on the market. When WWII ended it freed up all the aluminum, though, so it could have been as early as '47. They were certainly on the market by '57.

So you are saying the USSR was in English letters?
 
  • #33
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Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I don't know if you grew up in snow country, but when I was a kid there was a universally used thing that was made of aluminum, about three feet in diameter, round and dished. You sat in it and slid down snowy hills. There were two leather handles at the edges 180 degrees apart to hold on. The edge was curled over to form a lip. If you took the handles off and put two together like a clamshell, you'd have a very professional looking lenticular disc. Eventually they started making them out of plastic. (The plastic ones sucked.) I haven't the vaguest idea when these things came on the market. When WWII ended it freed up all the aluminum, though, so it could have been as early as '47. They were certainly on the market by '57.

So you are saying the USSR was in English letters?
I remember these. The specific details from the FBI reports should help a little here; I don't remember the exact diameter of these saucers.

As I recall, and I will check on this when I review the docs again, the FBI agents words were "the inside was painted white...with the letters USSR painted in red".

I will find the exact quote...
 
  • #34
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I don't know how much Greg will let me get away with here. I will try posting the first two pertinent docs. I have another one about a CIA agent killed in an airplane crash; the local papers reported that the plane was carrying recovered flying saucers. see p29/69 of the pdf.

Also, the letters USSR were painted in white in one report. I am quite sure at least one other mentions these letters in red.
 

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  • #35
Ivan Seeking
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Here is the next doc. These may take some time to appear...if they ever do. Zooby, I am sending you a PM. Please check your inbox.

For those with Adobe, please see the FBI pdf file; pp 29,36,38, and 57.

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf

Here is the definitive doc the shows clear knowledge that the La case is a phony.
See p 4 of 79
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo2.pdf
 

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  • #36
Ivan Seeking
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Zooby, the file size limitation prevents me from posting the last doc mentioned; you would never be able to read it. The doc is marked "VERY URGENT" and is dated 7/7/47 - one week before the Hoover addendum of July 15th; and prior also to the date of the main Hoover doc of 7/10/47.

The special agent's (SA) memo states that a thin, aluminum, 16 inch diameter disk was retrieved. It was seen flying through the air with flames coming out of the sides. It crahsed and the fire went out. The memo further states that the disk was taken by G2 before the SA arrived. It was rigged with some electronics. The document source location is New Orleans.

One sentence of the memo is missing; followed by one blacked out word, then a hypen, then in quotes "made in USA". The rest of the description then continues.
 
  • #37
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Quite fascinating.

I have no idea what G2 is.

When you say one sentence of the memo is missing, what do you mean? What is it that makes you aware of a sentence that isn't there?

So, there are two separate documents. One has relevant references on several pages, and the other on one page?

-Zooby


16 inches? If I recall correctly the original flying saucers (Kevin Arnold?) were reported to be quite small, but I never had a sence of how big he really thought they were. Anyway, if the Kevin Arnold(?) story said they were small then it would explain why these hoaxed ones were so small.
 
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  • #38
Ivan Seeking
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Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Quite fascinating.
This stuff is a kick in the butt.

I have no idea what G2 is.
G-2
Army or Marine Corps component intelligence staff officer (Army division or higher staff, Marine Corps brigade or higher staff)
When you say one sentence of the memo is missing, what do you mean? What is it that makes you aware of a sentence that isn't there?
An extra space between sentences clearly contains missing text. It could have just been a bad copy that didn't translate to the document when digitized by the scanner.

So, there are two separate documents. One has relevant references on several pages, and the other on one page?

-Zooby
Hoovers quotes is cited which makes clear the unreadable text - the La. case. [EDIT: Note that you were right - La. case - I just couldn't argue the point without absolute certainty] The one page references the the recent activity which includes La., and then the last document is the report from the field agent in New Orleans.


16 inches? If I recall correctly the original flying saucers (Kevin Arnold?) were reported to be quite small, but I never had a sence of how big he really thought they were. Anyway, if the Kevin Arnold(?) story said they were small then it would explain why these hoaxed ones were so small.
Here is his description. Also, sorry, my fault, it's Kenneth Arnold.

Kevin Arnold was the character on The Wonder Years

He was looking down at the ground when suddenly he noticed a series of bright flashes off to his left. He looked for the source of the flashes and saw a string of nine very bright disk shaped objects, which he estimated to be 45 to 50 feet in length. They were traveling from north to south across the nose of his airplane. They were flying in a reversed echelon (i.e., lead object high with the rest stepped down), and as they flew along they weaved in and out between the mountain peaks, once passing behind one of the peaks. Each individual object had a skipping motion described by Arnold as a "saucer skipping across water."
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/arnoldrup.htm

His sighting was typical of many that place the size of most discs at 30 to 50 feet in diameter.

Edit: Besides Zooby, size doesn't matter! Really the lack of proper perspective due to the size vs distance [if you don't know the distance you can't estimate the size] problem often nulls the significance of size.
 
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  • #39
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Here are some more interesting details found from this period of time. As mentioned earlier, according to the FBI info, a CIA agent was killed in a plane that crashed while in route from Portland, Oregon to Los Angeles. The Ca. papers reported that witnesses observed that the plane carried flying saucers. The FBI doc "assumes" that the agent was returning from an interview with a witness to a saucer; and that these were likely collected from hoaxes. The FBI was told by the CIA that the agent was on a Top Secret mission. FBI pdf 1; p29

Next, a possibly meaningless but interesting comment is made by a physicist who dropped by a FBI field office [Edit: note that I had said UFO field office before the edit]in Stamford, Conn., on July 7th. He was working locally with a physics group and wanted to mention first that he knew of such sighting in Italy during WWII. Next, he points out that recent reports of saucer activity include sightings in Mexico City, New Orleans, Philadelphia, New York, Boston, Halifax, Newfoundland, Paris, Milan, Bologna, and Yugoslavia and Albania. He then points out that by putting a string around a globe of the earth, one sees that all of the above mentioned cities form a direct orbit. See p 56 of FBI pdf #1.
 
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