Zorn's Lemma: Need help finding errors in proof

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a proof of Zorn's Lemma, focusing on identifying potential errors and assumptions within the proof. Participants engage with the theoretical aspects of the lemma, its implications, and the correctness of the proof structure.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a proof of Zorn's Lemma, detailing cases for when the set is empty and when it is not, and discusses the construction of totally-ordered sets.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the proof, suggesting that Zorn's Lemma cannot be proven and instead has various equivalent formulations.
  • A participant points out a typographical error in the proof regarding the index set notation, suggesting it should be I1 instead of X1.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the definition of the set T(y), with a participant arguing that being comparable to y does not imply that elements in T(y) are comparable to each other.
  • A participant clarifies their assumption of the Axiom of Choice in the context of selecting maximal elements in the proof.
  • Another participant acknowledges the previous point about T(y) not being totally ordered and seeks to edit their earlier post.
  • Discussion about the etiquette of editing posts arises, emphasizing community norms regarding post revisions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the proof of Zorn's Lemma, with some questioning its correctness and others providing clarifications. There is no consensus on the proof's validity or the assumptions made.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential errors in the proof and discuss the implications of assumptions such as the Axiom of Choice. The discussion highlights the complexity of the proof and the need for careful consideration of definitions and logical structure.

Terrell
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Proposition(Zorn's Lemma): Let ##X\neq\emptyset## be of partial order with the property that ##\forall Y\subseteq X## such that ##Y## is of total-order then ##Y## has an upperbound, then ##X## contains a maximal element.

Proof:
Case 1: ##B\neq\emptyset## such that ##B##=##\{####b\in X##: ##b## has an undefined order relation with all elements in ##X####\}##. Thus, ##\forall b\in B##, ##b## is maximal since there is no ##x\in X## where ##b<x##.

Case 2: ##B=\emptyset##; Let ##I_1## be some index set and let ##Y_\alpha,\forall\alpha\in X_1## denote all the totally-ordered sets in ##X##. Consider that ##\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## is either a poset or a totally-ordered set in ##X##. If ##\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## is totally ordered, then, by the premise of the lemma, ##\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## has an upperbound ##\hat{y}##. Since ##\hat{y}## would then be an upperbound of all totally-ordered subsets in ##X##, then no ##x\in X## satisfies ##\hat{y}<x##. Hence, ##\hat{y}## is a maximal element in ##X##. If ##\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## is a poset, then ##\exists y_1,y_2\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## such that the order relation ##y_1## and ##y_2## is undefined. In order to resolve this issue(of being unable to "compare"), we construct a set ##\mathscr{T}## of totally-ordered sets ##\Bbb{T}(y)## where ##\forall\overline{y}\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha##, we let \begin{align}\Bbb{T}(\overline{y})=\{y\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha:y\leq_X\overline{y}\quad \lor\quad \overline{y}\leq_X y\}\end{align}
Note that the correspondence of each ##\overline{y}\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha## to a set ##\Bbb{T}(\overline{y})## is not one-to-one. Nevertheless, we have a collection ##\mathscr{T}=\{\Bbb{T}(y):y\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha\}=\{\Bbb{T}(y):y\in X\}##. Each ##\Bbb{T}(y)## is constructed in such a way so that ##\forall\alpha\in I_1, \exists\Bbb{T}(y)\in\mathscr{T}## such that ##Y_\alpha\subseteq\Bbb{T}(y)##. Moreover, since ##B=\emptyset## and ##\forall y\in\cup_{\alpha\in I_1}Y_\alpha##, ##\Bbb{T}(y)## contains the maximum number of elements from ##X## while remaining totally-ordered, then ##\forall x_i\in X## where ##x_i\notin\Bbb{T}(y)##, it must be that ##x_i\in\Bbb{T}(y')## where ##y## and ##y'## have an undefined order-relation. Lastly, since we know that ##\forall y\in X, \Bbb{T}(y)\subseteq X## and is totally-ordered, then, by our premise, ##\Bbb{T}(y)## has an upperbound ##\tau## which I think is some maximal of ##X## because all upperbounds of each distinct ##\Bbb{T}(y^*)\in\mathscr{T}## are pair-wise undefined order relation(or incomparable). So for all upperbound ##\tau## in some ##\Bbb{T}(y)## there does not exist ##x\in X## such that ##\tau <x##.
 
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Before someone will fight their way through your proof, will say I'm not sure yet, whether I'm the one, since it's far too hot here and this increases my chances to be wrong, please tell us your assumption. Zorn's Lemma cannot be proven. It only has various equivalent formulations (four others in my book), so either equivalence is proven or a deduction from one of the other formulations. Which one?
 
first of all., in line 6, the letter X1 should be I1. Then in the definition of T(y), as the set of all elements of X which are comparable to y, there is no reason for T(y) to be itself totally ordered. I.e. just because every pair of elements in T(y) are comparable to y, there is no reason for them to be comparable to each other. I stopped there.
 
Last edited:
fresh_42 said:
please tell us your assumption.
I assumed Axiom of Choice. In particular, when choosing a maximal element of each chain ##\Bbb{T}(y)## constructed in the proof.
 
mathwonk said:
there is no reason for T(y) to be itself totally ordered.
thank you! I missed that. Is there anyway I could edit this post?
 
Terrell said:
thank you! I missed that. Is there anyway I could edit this post?
No, but you can "reply" it, remove the quotation marks and post a new version. To edit it afterwards isn't polite. It would make @mathwonk's answer look stupid, which is why there is a timer on the edit button.
 
fresh_42 said:
No, but you can "reply" it, remove the quotation marks and post a new version. To edit it afterwards isn't polite.
Noted. This is what I like about the community here. Most people here considers that human beings have feelings too. lol
 

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