Electrical Emergency Battery Backup System for TV/Internet During Power Outages

[Rive]

Could we live happily without Internet, freezer and TV?

Well. It may taking the issue on larger scale, but I think internet will more and more become a critical infrastructure in the future, with the TV being reduced to be a bit bigger monitor only. So for the former, it's a no.
And that includes the mobile phones too.

Regarding the freezer - without those most people would be dependent on the grocery stores and their fresh supply. Is that fundamentally better/different?

 

[symbolipoint]

Somehow I doubt power outages will happen only during sunny weather, which puts us back at the storage problem.

The idea is , store during the day and possibly use whenever - daylight or nighttime.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Saw no comment or response yet about solar power generators or chargers.

If $1000 is too much, how much energy is he going to be able to store from solar?

 

[bob012345]

I agree with your view on this. Reliance on technology seems to have created the spiral we find ourselves in. The back-up system is only a sticking plaster on the injury. Could we live happily without Internet, freezer and TV?

There was a day when people were content reading newspapers and felt they were connected to the world.

 

[bob012345]

(Only up to page 1 of this topic)

Saw no comment or response yet about solar power generators or chargers. Maybe are their effectiveness too limited?

They work and there are solar cookers too which work. There are also cooking techniques we can borrow from other cultures which stretch the available cooking power of the sun or fuels used such as hay baskets. So cooking is not a problem.

The next level on my proposed battery backup system for TV is a solar charger in case of an extended outage lasting many days but if it were due to rolling outages which is the most likely scenario, there would be intermittent wall power to charge the batteries so that seems unnecessary.

 

[bob012345]

Regarding the freezer - without those most people would be dependent on the grocery stores and their fresh supply. Is that fundamentally better/different?

Canned goods and dry goods are reliable old standby's too. Up until the pandemic I generally kept very little food at the house in any form, a few days only. I have since expanded that to a few weeks.

 

[bob012345]

If $1000 is too much, how much energy is he going to be able to store from solar?

That referred to my thought that the ready to go in one box commercial system just seemed overpriced and one could assemble an equivalent system for less not that I could not spend that if I chose to. That commercial system has a solar charging option for another $300 but again I think a much higher price for the same amount of solar panels one could buy without the brand.

In the end I might decide I am lazy enough to just buy the commercial system though...

 

[Grinkle]

I suggest you make a specific list of what you want to power, what power it consumes and how long you want to power it.

If you have a patio, buy a propane campstove (Amazon, Wal-Mart, commonly available) and some 1 lb propane containers (brick and mortar stores only, these are not shipping friendly) for cooking. That will cost you in the neighborhood of $75 and be much more straightforward than powering a microwave - also you can heat water with the stove for doing dishes. If you have a large enough patio, you can store a 20lb or 10lb propane tank there and not mess with the 1lb bottles which are disposable as opposed to re-fillable and so relatively more eco-unfriendly.

If you get your list down to your original post, modem, TV, DVD then I think the previous suggestion of battery backup is your best bet. If you end up wanting to run you normal household lights that is a big step up in complexity and imo not worth bothering with.

Regarding -

I am not sure how to interpret this;

• 600VA / 330W Backup Battery power supply

I think this is a 3A@110V max output device and a capacity of 600VA, so if drawing 3A@110RMS continuously the system will be at 0 charge after 2 hours. (300 VA's per hour being drained). I would de-rate my own personal expectations on that capacity by about 50%.

 

[bob012345]

I suggest you make a specific list of what you want to power, what power it consumes and how long you want to power it.

If you have a patio, buy a propane campstove (Amazon, Wal-Mart, commonly available) and some 1 lb propane containers (brick and mortar stores only, these are not shipping friendly) for cooking. That will cost you in the neighborhood of $75 and be much more straightforward than powering a microwave - also you can heat water with the stove for doing dishes. If you have a large enough patio, you can store a 20lb or 10lb propane tank there and not mess with the 1lb bottles which are disposable as opposed to re-fillable and so relatively more eco-unfriendly.

If you get your list down to your original post, modem, TV, DVD then I think the previous suggestion of battery backup is your best bet. If you end up wanting to run you normal household lights that is a big step up in complexity and imo not worth bothering with.

Regarding -
I think this is a 3A@110V max output device and a capacity of 600VA, so if drawing 3A@110RMS continuously the system will be at 0 charge after 2 hours. (300 VA's per hour being drained). I would de-rate my own personal expectations on that capacity by about 50%.

Good suggestions. As far as lights go, not the whole house but a couple of lamps with low wattage LED lamps running on smaller batteries for ~5-10 hours per charge. Of course flashlights as backup for that and candles as backup for that...

 

[Tom.G]

I am not sure how to interpret this;

• 600VA / 330W Backup Battery power supply

The 330W is the peak power the system can supply before either blowing an internal fuse or shutting down from an overload.

The 600VA is the maximum reactive power to avoid shutting down. Motors, for instance, and many computer power supplies have a large reactive component in their loading.

The run-time of a battery back-up is limited by the battery capacity. For instance I am using a commercial 750 VA/450W UPS to run the computer I'm typing this on. That's over powered by a factor of about 2 but it will take a larger battery.

The battery in it is rated 12V 9AH 14AH and a new battery gives about 15 minutes of run time (about 1/2 to1/3 of what you expect from the battery size alone); but running it that long is so hard on the battery that I'm lucky to get 8 minutes on the next cycle.

Also, I replace the battery when the run time from the self-test drops to 75% of a new battery. I find that the battery degrades rapidly beyond that point. That means the battery gets replaced after about 3 2 years of very light usage, costing a little over USD$1 per month - or 3 to 4 cents a day.

Sure beats a day or three of trying to recover from a computer crash!

Cheers,
Tom
Edit: battery size and lifetime 1/23/2022

 

[Grinkle]

The 600VA is the maximum reactive power to avoid shutting down.

That makes sense - I saw that spec stated as "capacity" on Amazon, hence my incorrect reasoning.

 

[russ_watters]

There was a day when people were content reading newspapers and felt they were connected to the world.

For years I have mentioned to my mom what I read in tomorrow's newspaper and no matter how many times I explain it to her, she never understands it.

 

[sophiecentaur]

wanting to have a sense of normalcy during those times

It could be that regular failing electricity supply will actually be 'normalcy' before too long. Look around the World.
I have a wood burner which provides enough heat for the lower floor and I have heated water on the top of it. Forget the telly - read a book or play board games. AA cells will last a long time in LED torches.
I was thinking that people with electric cars have a significant amount of stored energy. If your daily timetable would support it, that could be a useful band aid.

 

[anorlunda]

We use batteryuniversity.com as the vendor-independent source for reliable and comprehensive information about batteries.

It would be nice to have an analogous source for power backup and/or off-grid household advice. UPS supplies, portable generators, fixed generators, safety, grid interface, plus info on the frequency and duration of possible outages would all be topics covered.

Lacking that, each homeowner makes haphazard, and perhaps ineffective, overblown, or even hazardous individual decisions.

Vendor sources, such as Honda, or Kohler of course discuss only the use of their own products.

Does anyone know of such a source that we could cite here on PF?

 

[bob012345]

It could be that regular failing electricity supply will actually be 'normalcy' before too long. Look around the World.
I have a wood burner which provides enough heat for the lower floor and I have heated water on the top of it. Forget the telly - read a book or play board games. AA cells will last a long time in LED torches.
I was thinking that people with electric cars have a significant amount of stored energy. If your daily timetable would support it, that could be a useful band aid.

If it does it would induce people to counter that by redesigning the system to be resilient and taking individual responsibility for energy needs to the extent possible and reasonable. I am in a local group of renewable energy advocates and enthusiasts. Some members apply various solutions to energy use and generation from energy efficiency, battery backup, solar panels all the way up to net zero houses. Groups like that can be found or started almost anywhere.

 

[Laroxe]

I was growing live food for my aquariums in a 60 gallon tank outside, which I needed to keep the temp above freezing, my very rough, ready and cheap solution was;
A 200w solar panel kit for charging batteries which included a charge controller which cost around £40
A 600w power inverter - 12v to 240v (uk) cost £30
I got 2 second hand truck batteries from a scrapyard, ordinary lead acid rated at 110 ah each for £20 each.
Really, the better choice is deep cycle batteries, these are much better at providing continuous power, but these are expensive.
I had an old 240 volt aquarium heater- thermostat which I used. That worked fine for the grand total of £110, I had to replace one of the batteries after 2 years
You would need a more powerful system & it would be easier if you dropped the microwave requirement but people are able to use quite a lot of things in camper vans and caravans, it might be useful to see if you can find where they go to die. You can even find used deep cycle batteries that come from things like fork lift trucks on eBay. You shouldn't need to pay a fortune for a backup system, but you might have to be flexible in your requirements.

 

[anorlunda]

Some members apply various solutions to energy use and generation from energy efficiency, battery backup, solar panels all the way up to net zero houses. Groups like that can be found or started almost anywhere.

Nearly 50% of the population live in multiple family, or even high rise buildings. Their options are limited compared to those with private houses.

 

[bob012345]

Nearly 50% of the population live in multiple family, or even high rise buildings. Their options are limited compared to those with private houses.

Renters are not always renters forever and they have a stake in the energy infrastructure. They can join groups and learn about technology and policy and have an influence on society in general not to mention on the rental market itself. Efficiency and waste are not the sole domain of homeowners.

 

[sophiecentaur]

A 200w solar panel kit for charging batteries which included a charge controller which cost around £40
A 600w power inverter - 12v to 240v (uk) cost £30
I got 2 second hand truck batteries from a scrapyard, ordinary lead acid rated at 110 ah each for £20 each.
Really, the better choice is deep cycle batteries, these are much better at providing continuous power, but these are expensive.
I had an old 240 volt aquarium heater- thermostat which I used. That worked fine for the grand total of £110, I had to replace one of the batteries after 2 years

For that relatively small scale installation you probably got a good solution. For storing a large number of kWhr, the electrical storage may not be best. (Depending on your actual situation, of course). But why use a mains voltage heater? There are plenty of low voltage heaters (or even car headlamp bulbs) about and no inverter would be necessary.

For home heating and washing water, no significant electric power is needed.Thermal solar panels can be home-made and can 'charge up' a large, well insulated tank of water. Keeping temperatures low (downside is that needs a lot of stored water) reduces losses. There are also solar heat panels which are very efficient, even in 'cold' weather conditions.

 

[Rive]

Forget the telly - read a book or play board games. AA cells will last a long time in LED torches.

Yes. I'm a bit confused about that microwave oven thing of this topic too. To have the necessary capacity and power due a few minutes of excess load is not really a good solution by my book.

Regarding those torches - there are already flashlights with Li-ion battery and USB connector. They can cut back material consumption (batteries) some really nicely.

 

[rsk]

I spent a year working in Kathmandu. Power outages were not only common there, they were programmed because the grid can't cope with the demand. Load shedding they call it, and they published a timetable showing which areas of the city would have power at which times of day.

Anyway, people there use inverters as back up. They're big ugly things but they work to run small loads such as lighting, tv, router etc. I found I could run my little electric Baletti coffee maker off it, but it growled at me in protest (worth the risk for the few minutes it takes to brew coffee).

As I understand it, things have improved and load shedding is needed far less frequently now - only if in dry season there's not enough water to power the hydro-electrics.

 

[dlgoff]

We use batteryuniversity.com as the vendor-independent source for reliable and comprehensive information about batteries.

And a good source it is.

 

[bob012345]

Yes. I'm a bit confused about that microwave oven thing of this topic too. To have the necessary capacity and power due a few minutes of excess load is not really a good solution by my book.

Regarding those torches - there are already flashlights with Li-ion battery and USB connector. They can cut back material consumption (batteries) some really nicely.

The system I envision to run the TV/internet for many hours would also power the microwave for a few minutes without much loss. It would have more than a kwh of energy so I might use ~8% to cook. I would hook it up to the microwave, cook dinner, then hook it to the TV and eat. The point was to retain normalcy.

As far as flashlights (torches), they are backup to my normal looking battery powered room lamps.

 

[rsk]

Attached photo is a load-shedding timetable from Kathmandu. This is from early 2016, the times slots shown are times when power is off. This was a particularly bad year, with general electricity problems exacerbated by a dispute over a new constitution which meant a blockade on the border with India, so very little getting through. Fuel, both for transport and the bottled kind used for heating and cooking, was especially badly affected.

 

[Rive]

I was thinking that people with electric cars have a significant amount of stored energy. If your daily timetable would support it, that could be a useful band aid.

I've been mulling over this for a time, and it's a strange problem. If the length of power outage cannot be planned, then this may easily end with temporally limited mobility. Would be really inconvenient.

On the other hand, what about hybrid vehicles? They have fuel tank (enormous capacity!) and can charge the battery (can they charge the battery without moving?).
I see more possibilities in PHEVs than in EVs (not right now, but for a possible future utilization).

 

[sophiecentaur]

Would be really inconvenient.

It could turn out to be something to expect - as it is these days in many parts of the World. You have to choose how big your reserve of energy should be (what can you afford?) on the basis of forecasts and experience.
This is where a pile of logs can be reassuring for people with some land and some say in what they can use in the home. For someone in multiple occupancy blocks, they would need to 'persuade' landlords to provide some form of local backup.

 

[Grinkle]

what about hybrid vehicles?

In general, one can idle the engine of any carbon-fuel car and draw power from the 12V rail, hybrid or otherwise. This rail is easily accessible via the cigarette lighter socket (I'm old enough to remember when it was still used as such). I just did a little reading on hybrid vehicles and as-constructed they are not different for this application than non-hybrid vehicles. Hybrid's also come with a traditional 12V auto battery for starting the engine and providing some reserve power for the 12V rail - they are kept charged by the alternator just as in gas only vehicles. The power-train-assist battery is higher voltage and not connected to the 12V rail of the hybrid vehicle. I suspect DIY'ing to tap into this battery for powering external devices would be the quickest way possible to void the warranty on the battery, and maybe on the vehicle as a whole, but I don't know that for sure, I am speculating there.

Edit -

I don't know if the power-train-assist battery will spin the alternator in a hybrid vehicle - if it will, then that storage is also available without necessarily idling the engine. I tried some quick searching and couldn't locate any reference to that question. I tend to doubt it, seems like a lot of added complexity for no real utility but I don't know for sure.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I suspect DIY'ing to tap into this battery for powering external devices would be the quickest way possible to void the warranty on the battery,

DIY yes but I did hear of a serious suggestion that electric car batteries could be used as off-peak storage. It makes you wonder how people would deal with that sort of a regime. It could involve deliberately under-using an electric car, just to use it as storage. Not good economy though; driving around with what would effectively be extra weight on board. Best to keep the batteries at home.

 

[Grinkle]

electric car batteries could be used as off-peak storage

IMO they are used that way, that is the point of charging overnight. The use of the stored energy is limited to transportation, obviously, at least afaik. Here is something I just found when I searched for "do tesla cars come with an inverter".

https://electrek.co/2021/02/23/tesl...wer-your-home-with-electric-car-battery-pack/

 

[Rive]

In general, one can idle the engine of any carbon-fuel car and draw power from the 12V rail

That just does not worth the effort.

If anything like this would happen then it would be about the main battery of an EV or PHEV, and it would be through a bidirectional charge/inverter circuit. And charging from the ICE would be through the drive train.
This tech is just not used (though possible and pieces of it exist already). It is a possibility we might think about.