How Can the Quotient Group G/Go Act Effectively on X?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of how the quotient group G/Go can act effectively on a set X, given a group G of transformations acting on X and a subgroup Go. Participants explore the definitions and implications of effective actions and the well-defined nature of the quotient group's action on X.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the quotient group G/Go can act on X, noting that each member of the quotient is a set of transformations and suggesting that Go does not provide a one-to-one correspondence from X to X.
  • Another participant proposes that for an element h in G, the notation [h] = hGo is in G/G0, and questions whether the action [h]*x := h*x is well defined.
  • A subsequent reply agrees with the concern about well-definedness, suggesting that there may be different functions h1 and h2 such that [h1] = [h2], leading to ambiguity in the action on x.
  • Another participant points out that the G-action of elements of Go could be used to show that the action of G/G0 is well defined, hinting at a deeper relationship between the elements of G and Go.
  • One participant reflects on the implications of [h1] = [h2] and the existence of an element k in Go such that h1 = h2k, leading to a conclusion about the action on x, but expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their reasoning.
  • Another participant acknowledges a mistake in their earlier reasoning regarding the end result of the G/Go action.
  • A final comment suggests that if elements of G act trivially, they can be referred to as "the identity," implying a relationship between trivial actions and the identity in the context of the quotient group.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the well-defined nature of the action of G/Go on X, with some agreeing on the need for clarification while others propose different interpretations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the effective action of the quotient group.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential ambiguities in the definitions and relationships between elements of G and Go, as well as the implications of the actions on X. There are unresolved questions about the assumptions underlying the definitions of effective actions and the nature of the quotient group.

learningphysics
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This is question 53\gamma. Given a group G of transformations that acts on X... and a subgroup of G, Go (g * x = x for all x for each g in Go), show that the quotient group G/Go acts effectively on X.

A group G "acts effectively" on X, if g * x = x for all x implies that g = e, where g is a member of G.

I don't see how the quotient group G/Go can act on X... Each member of the quotient group, is itself a set of transformations. For example, take Go which is a member of G/Go. It seems to me that Go * x (where x belongs to X) is undefined, since Go is not a one to one correspondence from X to X (each member of Go is, but Go itself isn't).

I'd appreciate any help. Thanks.
 
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Hint.

Let h be in G, so [h] = hG0 is in G/G0. Is [h]*x := h*x well defined?
 
George Jones said:
Hint.

Let h be in G, so [h] = hG0 is in G/G0. Is [h]*x := h*x well defined?

Hi George... Thanks for the reply.

It seems to me like it is not well defined. There may be two different functions... say h1 and h2, such that [h1] =

... So is [h1]*x = h1*x or h2*x ?

 
learningphysics said:
So is [h1]*x = h1*x or h2*x ?

In general, yes. However, in this case, we know something about the G-action of elements of G0. Can this be exploited to show that G/G0 action that I gave is well defined?
 
You should try to verify this yourself, it is quite straightfoward. What does [h1]=

mean? That there is a k in Go such that h1k=h2. What was the definition of Go?

 
Ah... I see now... h1*x = h2*x. Thanks George and Matt.
 
Last edited:
learningphysics said:
Ah... I see now... h1*x = h2*x.

Careful - this isn't isn't necessarily true. But what is true?

Maybe you just made a typo.
 
George Jones said:
Careful - this isn't isn't necessarily true. But what is true?

Maybe you just made a typo.

Hmm... If [h1]=

then there's a k in Go such that h1= h2k so

h1 * x = h2k * x
h1 * x = h2 * (k * x), then since k is in Go, k * x = x

h1 * x = h2 * x

I'm probably making a really stupid mistake somewhere. Sorry guys... I appreciate the patience.

 
Sorry - my mistake.

Edit: I was thinking of the end result, i.e, the G/Go action.
 
  • #10
if you call all the elements of G that act trivially, "the identity", then the only elements that act trivially after that are called the identity.
 

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