What are the economic impacts of government growth and corruption?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the economic impacts of government growth and corruption, particularly in the context of political figures and their proposed policies. Participants explore various viewpoints on the implications of these policies, including foreign aid, environmental plans, and adherence to constitutional principles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concern over a political figure's extreme proposals, such as withdrawing from the UN and cutting foreign aid, suggesting these ideas may reflect a lack of understanding among supporters.
  • Others highlight the candidate's strong voting record and long-standing commitment to certain economic principles, including Austrian economics.
  • There are critiques regarding the candidate's environmental stance, with claims that he lacks a coherent plan and believes issues will resolve themselves through market forces.
  • Some participants argue that the candidate's approach to foreign policy, including isolationism, raises questions about the consequences of such a stance on global issues.
  • Discussions include the candidate's adherence to the Constitution, with mixed opinions on whether this reflects courage or a lack of rational analysis of potential outcomes.
  • Participants debate the implications of market capitalism and the role of government in regulating large corporations and funding research and development.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the candidate's policies, their implications, and the overall effectiveness of his approach to governance.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments depend on interpretations of constitutional law and the effectiveness of market forces, which remain unresolved. Participants express differing opinions on the candidate's statements and their implications for both domestic and international policy.

falc39
Wow, has anyone been following how much he raised yesterday, I think the figure was 6 million in one day.

Here are his fundraising stats:

1st: $639,889
2nd: 2.5 million
3rd: 5.3 million
4th: approaching 20 million

Talk about exponential. Crazy
 
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No, he's a nut. "Crazy" is right.

It's amazing how many people have jumped on the bandwagon and have absolutely no clue what kind of crazy things he's proposing, like leaving the UN.
 
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He will be on Meet the Press next Sunday. The show can be watched online later.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/

Some of his ideas do sound extreme, but an hour on Meet the Press can be worth a thousand press releases in its information value. He clearly offers ideas that inspire a new generation of voters.

Note that Russert has been interviewing all of the candidates. See the list of candidates along the right column of the page and click to watch.

So far he is the only Republican that has a chance of getting my vote. After the last seven years we might just need someone like Ron Paul. That's what happens when you support crazies like Bush.
 
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He doesn't even have an environmental plan. In a live interview when asked about GW/C02 he said he'd heard about it, but said it would work itself out naturally based on marketing needs. That video of the interview was posted in another thread here.
 
There are some things I don't agree with him, and then there are some things I really love about him:

His impeccable voting record. The most honest politician I've ever witnessed in my lifetime. I'm reading his book, https://www.amazon.com/dp/0912453001/?tag=pfamazon01-20.

Great book, he's basically been saying the same thing for 20+ years, hasn't flip-flopped at all. He supposedly has studied Austrian economics for the last 20 years too.
 
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Evo said:
He doesn't even have an environmental plan. In a live interview when asked about GW/C02 he said he'd heard about it, but said it would work itself out naturally based on marketing needs. That video of the interview was posted in another thread here.

But he is dedicated to the Constitution, and that is more important that any other issue.

If we have a constitutional government, then the will of the people will follow. By definition that would include environmental issues.
 
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Hopefully the will of the people will be to elect someone that has all of his bulbs lit. :eek:
 
Evo said:
It's amazing how many people have jumped on the bandwagon and have absolutely no clue what kind of crazy things he's proposing, like leaving the UN.

He might be a bit strange, but he speaks his mind because he knows he can't win. He took a strip off Giuliani, he openly talks about completely withdrawing from the middle east, he had the guts to say 9/11 was due to bad foreign policy, he talks about how the war should not have happened, and he talks about government bloat in general. He's not the kind of person you want leading the country, but he's worth having around.
 
He wants to pull all foreign aid to other countries and isolate the US from the rest of the world. You've heard about his stand on refusing aid to Darfur?
 
  • #10
Evo said:
No, he's a nut. "Crazy" is right.

It's amazing how many people have jumped on the bandwagon and have absolutely no clue what kind of crazy things he's proposing, like leaving the UN.
There's a guy in the building where I work who supports both Kucinich and Ron Paul - and displays bumper stickers of both on his car. I think he's a self described liberal-libertarian who has some rather nutty ideas. Last presidential election, he supported Nader.
 
  • #11
He may have given a silly statement about Market Forces ending slavery, but the idea of pulling out isn't so foreign. If you can look at your own citizens and say "deal with your own problems" then why not apply that same logic to the rest of the world? That makes at least as much sense as the current republican view of letting lower class Americans fix their own problems but trying to save the world when it comes to international problems. If the country can't deal with its own problems, why would it take on the world's problems?
 
  • #12
Rep. Paul's close adherence to the constitution in the face in the status quo must certainly be the reason for his wide appeal. For me, the interesting question about Paul is whether or not this position is taken out of courage or nuttiness. That is, a nut doesn't require courage to challenge the status quo because he doesn't rationally analyze all the consequences of doing so. After watching more of him I believe there's some courage there and unfortunately also some nuttiness. I saw him a couple weeks back in a televised house committee where Bernanke was testifying on the economy/Fed and specifically on the falling dollar vs other currencies. Paul went off on a rant, a fair description I think compared to the solid & quiet Bernake. Now when you are running for President and you question the Fed Chairman seems to me you should have a very good handle on the facts before launching into a rant. Paul went on about this would eat up the savings of the common man (?). Bernanke explained that would only be the case, um, if one was buying all your food, etc from overseas and traveling to the south of France, and that the falling dollar would would, uh, have little effect on inflation, which is, uh, what you really mean. http://resources.bravenet.com/audio..._simpson_-_longer_version_of_the_doh/listen/"
 
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  • #13
ShawnD said:
.. he had the guts to say 9/11 was due to bad foreign policy,
I don't recall where he specifically said this , but if so then good example: You say guts, I say nuts on this one. The logic of the argument is that if somehow the US didn't antagonize Al-Qaeda that they would chill out; the evidence is almost completely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_withdrawal_from_Saudi_Arabia" . If Paul's policy is hand's off the world, then what about the consequences? A non-nut has to consider them. Does that mean sit by and allow the enslavement of women, WMD equipped Al-Qaeda, the destruction of Israel?
 
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  • #14
If Ron Paul had "close adherence" to the constitution he'd realize that the United States is bounded by any international treaty it signs onto that's ratified by the congress (Article VI). The US can't go entering into agreements and then back out of them, according to the constitution. He has as much spin on the constitution as the so-called "constitutionalists" or any other politician.

I also disagree with his belief in market capitalism. Corporations become so big that they become "too big to fail" and rely upon the government far more than the "welfare cheat," whoever that's supposed to be. Also, the market has proven ineffective in numerous areas and thus R&D funding is necessary by the government (particularly in space exploration, automotive standards, computing, etc.).
 
  • #15
mheslep said:
Rep. Paul's close adherence to the constitution in the face in the status quo must certainly be the reason for his wide appeal. For me, the interesting question about Paul is whether or not this position is taken out of courage or nuttiness. That is, a nut doesn't require courage to challenge the status quo because he doesn't rationally analyze all the consequences of doing so. After watching more of him I believe there's some courage there and unfortunately also some nuttiness. I saw him a couple weeks back in a televised house committee where Bernanke was testifying on the economy/Fed and specifically on the falling dollar vs other currencies. Paul went off on a rant, a fair description I think compared to the solid & quiet Bernake. Now when you are running for President and you question the Fed Chairman seems to me you should have a very good handle on the facts before launching into a rant. Paul went on about this would eat up the savings of the common man (?). Bernanke explained that would only be the case, um, if one was buying all your food, etc from overseas and traveling to the south of France, and that the falling dollar would would, uh, have little effect on inflation, which is, uh, what you really mean. http://resources.bravenet.com/audio..._simpson_-_longer_version_of_the_doh/listen/"

I saw that too. You kind of have to know that Paul analyzes the market through Austrian economic school of thought. I felt he did say some great things to Bernanke.
http://www.mises.org/story/2781"

A lot of people actually support his views with economics, he was just on Jim Cramer's mad money and I thought Jim Cramer was going to start worshiping him at one point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teEHdCrFqE"

Nevertheless, In my opinion, Paul seems to have a firm grasp of monetary policy compared to other candidates.
 
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  • #16
Evo said:
No, he's a nut. "Crazy" is right.

It's amazing how many people have jumped on the bandwagon and have absolutely no clue what kind of crazy things he's proposing, like leaving the UN.

Unfortunately, I know exactly how loony he is. Thanks to Republican gerrymandering designed to counter previous Democratic gerrymandering, Ron Paul is now http://www.govtrack.us/congress/findyourreps.xpd?state=TX&district=14" . He appeals to the mix of nutballs, retirees, and engineers/physical scientists that form the bulk of the electorate in this district. One thing I really don't get is his immense appeal to engineers and physical scientists.

mheslep said:
Does that mean sit by and allow the enslavement of women, WMD equipped Al-Qaeda, the destruction of Israel?

Market forces will take care of all of that.:rolleyes:
 
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  • #17
mheslep said:
I don't recall where he specifically said this , but if so then good example: You say guts, I say nuts on this one.

Yes, it is "nuts" to state that many foreign policy specialists believe that 9-11 was partly caused by what many CIA specialists have termed "Blowback theory," i.e., the belief that the United States' support of corrupt dictators, radical Islamists (particularly the Mujahideen under the Reagan administration to help fight the Soviets) and so on has made the US a prime target for many in the Muslim world, and that many internationals scholars trace the spread of Islamic fundamentalism to the 1953 Iranian coup d'état in Iran, which led to much hostility and resentment towards the US as well as the spread of fundamentalism.

It's "nutty" to believe that the United States is not winning the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslim world and that to effectively combat terrorism we should punish those responsible (as in accordance with international law) and engage in social and ideological activities in addition to the use of force, despite what Bruce Hoffman at the "left-wing" Rand corporation says.

I'm sure you can give me the names of foreign policy experts who actually believe that that this a "nutty opinion," and that it's not just "nutty" according to the likes of Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Neal Boortz, and Rudy Giuliani's foreign relations adviser.

mheslep said:
The logic of the argument is that if somehow the US didn't antagonize Al-Qaeda that they would chill out;

I believe that the argument is that United States foreign policy has been, and is currently, increasing the role of Islamic fundamentalists and militant Jihadists, despite our best efforts, so we need a change in policy, not that they will just "chill out" if we don't respond in someway. Ron Paul is not saying that, and in fact he voted for the use of force in Afghanistan.

The claim is backed up by the facts and international relations experts, and I can give the studies if you like.
mheslep said:
the evidence is almost completely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_withdrawal_from_Saudi_Arabia" .
The evidence is that US foreign policy has not been effectively combating terrorism around the world.

mheslep said:
If Paul's policy is hand's off the world, then what about the consequences? A non-nut has to consider them. Does that mean sit by and allow the enslavement of women, WMD equipped Al-Qaeda, the destruction of Israel?
What about the fact that the United States has far more often had absolutely disastrous rather than successful results using the military in the third world (i.e. Vietnam)?

Ronald Reagan claimed he was going to put an end to the change the "evil" Sandinista's were bringing to Nicarauga, and as a result they ended up the second poorest country in the hemisphere in the 1980s, with Ortega currently back in power (not to mention the tens of thousands of people killed in what the World Court condemned as "international terrorism" committed by the US). I'm sure you're upset that the Miskito Indians ended up in a far worse position than under the Sandinistas.

Or in Brazil, where the US supported Branco, or Pinochet under Chile, or Argentina under Videla, and other dictators part of "Operation Condor" (look it up, you could use the exercise). These right-wing dictators did not exactly have a successful track record when it came to human rights.

Since you've proclaimed yourself a foreign policy expert who can write off other people's opinions as "nutty," I'm sure you're well aware of the numerous US attempts to put down the democratic movements in the Islamic world, and the fact that some of the US' harshest critics when it comes to the Middle East are Iranians and Arabs who are part of those peace movements.

It seems that by the US interfering in the third world, the US causes far more trouble (and death) for the people in those countries than had they not intervened at all, Nicaragua, Chile, Vietnam, East Timor, Iraq, and Iraq again in the new millennium are just a few examples.
 
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  • #18
D H said:
One thing I really don't get is his immense appeal to engineers and physical scientists.

Neither can I. In fact, I don't even believe he has such an appeal to engineers and scientists, and some of the most respected physical scientists I know of (Klaus, etc.) are seemingly liberal.

Can you provide statistical evidence that Ron Paul has a large following of physical scientists (i.e. Ph.D level scientists)? Because according to a chart on wiki, a clear majority of engineers and scientists polled are Democrats.

For the record, I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but I think American foreign policy sucks, esp. under the Bush administration. It's so far to the right that even many in the foreign policy elite, right-wing realists and so on, think it's extreme.
 
  • #19
I haven't spent much time researching the latest candidates but from everyone has posted here, I think I like this guy. It seems pretty Constitionally sound to fix our own problems before we run out and try to fix the rest of the world. Lead by example first if we are going to lead anything.
 
  • #20
mheslep said:
I don't recall where he specifically said this , but if so then good example: You say guts, I say nuts on this one. The logic of the argument is that if somehow the US didn't antagonize Al-Qaeda that they would chill out; the evidence is almost completely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_withdrawal_from_Saudi_Arabia" .

Canada - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Denmark - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Sweden - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Norway - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
USA - strong presence in middle east - has terrorist problems
Israel - is located in the middle east - has severe terrorist problems

Seems like to the closer you get to the middle east, the worse things get. Even Reagan was smart enough to bail on the middle east after realizing what a piece of garbage it is. Ron Paul spoke quite a bit about the middle east and foreign policy.

And in answer to your question: **** the middle east.
 
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  • #21
falc39 said:
I saw that too. You kind of have to know that Paul analyzes the market through Austrian economic school of thought. I felt he did say some great things to Bernanke.
http://www.mises.org/story/2781"

A lot of people actually support his views with economics, he was just on Jim Cramer's mad money and I thought Jim Cramer was going to start worshiping him at one point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8teEHdCrFqE"

Nevertheless, In my opinion, Paul seems to have a firm grasp of monetary policy compared to other candidates.

Sure, to the extent he espouses market economics and less interference by the govt. of course many people support that. The trick is that just because one promotes many worthy ideas doesn't give you a pass to http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/dean_nuts.mpga".


...I mean, if you have a devaluation of the dollar at 10 percent, people have been robbed at 10 percent...
Thats just wrong, there's no Austrian economics about it.
 
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  • #22
drankin said:
I haven't spent much time researching the latest candidates but from everyone has posted here, I think I like this guy. It seems pretty Constitutionally sound to fix our own problems before we run out and try to fix the rest of the world. Lead by example first if we are going to lead anything.
Yes I have an affinity for that line as well. I agree with Paul when he says the hundreds of troop deployments around the world is out of line. I just don't know if he's the guy to sanely cut it back.
 
  • #23
ShawnD said:
Canada - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Denmark - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Sweden - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
Norway - not in middle east - has no terrorist problems
USA - strong presence in middle east - has terrorist problems
Israel - is located in the middle east - has severe terrorist problems
Thats amusing, and since it only takes a couple moments to dig up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Toronto_terrorism_case"
"www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13150516/"[/URL]
[PLAIN]"[URL
Jihad Against Danish Newspaper[/URL]
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/25/news/denmark.php"
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/denmark.htm"
and so on.
And in answer to your question: **** the middle east.
Ok good, thanks for the careful thoughtful answer. US can get rid of those damned expensive armed forces now.
 
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  • #24
OrbitalPower said:
Yes, it is "nuts" to state that many foreign policy specialists believe that 9-11 was partly caused by what many CIA specialists have termed "Blowback theory," i.e., the belief that the United States' support of corrupt dictators, radical Islamists (particularly the Mujahideen under the Reagan administration to help fight the Soviets) and so on has made the US a prime target for many in the Muslim world, and that many internationals scholars trace the spread of Islamic fundamentalism to the 1953 Iranian coup d'état in Iran, which led to much hostility and resentment towards the US as well as the spread of fundamentalism.

I spoke to only one issue, the claim by Rep. Paul that
9/11 was due to bad foreign policy
as posted in this thread. 9/11 was executed by Al Qaeda, not by the 'whole muslim world', and not by all radical Islamists. I didn't address, nor care to here, the whole post 9/11 war on terror. I also did not address Iran which has nil connection to AQ. I address just the organization responsible for 9/11 since that was the topic Paul's comment.

Now, in Afghanistan, you mistake the Mujahideen (local Afghanis) for the foreign Arabs to which Bin Laden belonged and which did its best to destroy the Mujahideen when the Taliban cam to power. If AQ has any roots it must be seen to be the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt via Al-Zawahiri, Bin Laden's mentor. Regardless of its roots, Bin Laden's Jihad declaration in the '90s stated as one its major reasons was the US troop presence in Saudi Arabia. The US left Saudi Arabia as I cited above. AQ response? More Jihad. BTW, you can find similar AQ like Islamic response around the world long before 9/11. So, yes, to blame 9/11 solely on the US and not the warped f'k'd in the head, slave trading, kill the unbeliever ideology of AQ, is nuts.
 
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  • #25
From what I read in the local paper, Ron Paul believes it is unfair that the Hispanics, Blacks and Jews can caucus in congress but Whites cannot. He sounds like the kid that is always picked last at everything. I mean, I guess if whites were allowed to caucus, then he would techniquely have to be a part of their group. lol
 
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  • #26
Many people make fun of the internet nerds supporting Ron Paul, and I support their ridicule.

His success is popular because he able to unite both social conservatives and social liberals. When you have rednecks and gays agreeing on the same candidate at times (albeit not well informed of political thought), you're destined to have some success.

Take for the example of same-sex marriage/civil unions:
Social conservatives agree with the libertarians who say: "it should be a state's rights (of course the idea won't fly one bit if given to states)"
Social liberals agree with the libertarians who say: "freedom for everybody, even homosexuals, government is evil and oppressive and irresponsible, church/state divide, etc."

The complications are that because libertarianism is infatuated with negative freedoms (i.e. "liberal"), it is thus conservative because it justifies a society where the poor are left to be poor. Libertarians like to think in theory, if everyone left to their own well-being, that everyone starts at the same starting place in life. That of course, ignores social oppression and things like gender, race, class completely that exist. So in a world where there is inequality, libertarianism is inherently conservative; in a world where everyone is equal, then libertarianism is liberal.

So if you're an angry person, angry at the world for having dealt you bad cards, then getting rid of the government will do jack-all for your self-interest, considering government as an "equalizer".
 
  • #27
opus said:
it is thus conservative because it justifies a society where the poor are left to be poor.

This is such bs. Many times democrats, republicans, and libertarians have the same objectives, but think different methods will accomplish those objectives.

Anyone who thinks Ron Paul is a libertarian may want to read this:
http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/45044.html
 
  • #28
He would abolish the IRS, and get the UN out of the US. Just those two items really got my attention. I have done some research on his view on other topics. He has my vote for sure. I have also been able to get several other people to look at his website to see what he stands for. Several of my family and freinds are voting Ron Paul now. He truly is the only hope for a decent future for us all.
 
  • #29
If he can get US out of the UN, then he has my vote.
 
  • #30
ShawnD said:
He's not the kind of person you want leading the country, but he's worth having around.
The democratic party is not counting primary votes in Michigan and Florida, republicans are only counting half in five states including Mich & FLA.

Ron Paul could win two of the largest swing states because of this, and his anti-war stance may have a presence at the national convention.

Ron Paul's voice is indeed worth having around.
 

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