Locally flat - what does it mean?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of "locally flat" space in general relativity, exploring its meaning and implications within the framework of differential geometry and manifold theory. Participants examine the definitions, interpretations, and examples related to local flatness, including its mathematical and physical significance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that "locally flat" means that in the neighborhood of each point, coordinates can be chosen such that the metric is flat, while others argue it can only be defined at a single point.
  • Another viewpoint posits that local flatness implies the metric is flat up to first order at a point, with second derivatives indicating curvature that cannot be made to vanish.
  • Several participants reference the definition of local flatness from mathematical texts, indicating that it involves the vanishing of connection components in a neighborhood, which leads to both torsion and curvature tensors vanishing.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of local flatness, questioning whether a manifold that is locally flat must also be globally flat, especially in the context of non-trivial topology.
  • One participant highlights the complexity of defining local flatness in terms of coordinate transformations, noting that the number of equations involved can vary significantly based on the symmetry of the metric.
  • Another contribution discusses geodesic coordinates, suggesting that they account for the first derivatives of the metric being zero, which relates to local flatness.
  • A participant emphasizes the ambiguity of the term "neighborhood" in general relativity, linking it to the equivalence principle and the challenges in determining its precise meaning.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of what "locally flat" means, with no consensus reached on a single definition. Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications and applications of local flatness in general relativity.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reveals limitations in the definitions of local flatness, particularly regarding the assumptions made about neighborhoods and the implications for (semi)Riemannian manifolds. The complexity of coordinate transformations and the role of curvature in defining local flatness are also noted as unresolved issues.

paweld
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What does it mean in general relativity that space is locally flat. It means that in neighbourhood of each point we can chose such coordinates that the metric is flat or we can do it only in a point (not in neighbourhood - open set).
 
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It means that given any point, we may choose a set of coordinates in which the metric is flat up to first order (i.e., the metric is flat at the point, and its first derivatives all vanish). The second derivatives cannot be made to vanish in general (since the second derivatives are basically the same thing as curvature).

Stated another way, it means that given any positive epsilon, we may find a neighborhood around the point where the deviation from flatness is smaller than epsilon.
 
paweld said:
What does it mean in general relativity that space is locally flat. It means that in neighbourhood of each point we can chose such coordinates that the metric is flat or we can do it only in a point (not in neighbourhood - open set).

Unfortunately, the term "locally flat" is not used consistently, and you have identified the two main uses of the term. The first definition is used by mathematically careful references, but the second definition is used by many physicists.

An example ot the former, the book Modern Mathematical Physics: Groups, Hilbert Space and Differential Geometry by Peter Szekeres, writes:

"A manifold M with affine connection is said to be locally flat if for every point p in M there is a chart (U; x^i) with such that all the components of the connection vanish throughout U. This implies of course both torsion tensor and curvature tensor vanish throughout U, ..."
 
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George Jones said:
An example ot the former, the book Modern Mathematical Physics: Groups, Hilbert Space and Differential Geometry by Peter Szekeres, writes:

"A manifold M with affine connection is said to be locally flat if for every point p in M there is a chart (U; x^i) with such that all the components of the connection vanish throughout U. This implies of course both torsion tensor and curvature tensor vanish throughout U, ..."

Other mathematically careful reference that have similar definition for local flatness include: Analysis, Manifolds and Physics; Tensor Analysis on Manifolds.
 
George Jones said:
"A manifold M with affine connection is said to be locally flat if for every point p in M there is a chart (U; x^i) with such that all the components of the connection vanish throughout U. This implies of course both torsion tensor and curvature tensor vanish throughout U, ..."

How in the world does this even make sense? Wouldn't such a manifold automatically be globally flat (though with possibly non-trivial topology)?
 
Ben Niehoff said:
How in the world does this even make sense? Wouldn't such a manifold automatically be globally flat (though with possibly non-trivial topology)?

And if the manifold has non-trivial topology, then there isn't necessarily a global coordinate system (in which the components of the connection are zero), hence the concept is formulated in terms of coordinate neighbourhoods in manner in which "local" is used for other mathematical concepts, for example, "locally compact".

Now, let me ask you a question. What restriction does your definition place on (semi)Riemannian manifolds? None; every (semi)Riemannian manifold satisfies your definition. Each definition is, in some sense, trivial. :smile:
 
paweld said:
What does it mean in general relativity that space is locally flat. It means that in neighbourhood of each point we can chose such coordinates that the metric is flat or we can do it only in a point (not in neighbourhood - open set).

A quote from me explains what LF means in general:

Altabeh said:
Completely true! You don't need to even think of "local flatness" in terms of Christoffel symbols when in GR. One just needs to set the first derivatives of metric tensor equal to zero which fits within the definition of "geodesic coordinates" which is not actually an actual coordinate system (read the point 1 below)! But remember that there is a strongly local coordinates in the sense that just at a point you can make the values of metric equal those of Minkowski metric. Here two points must be made:

1- In general, we can hardly determine a "coordinate transformation" x^{\mu}\rightarrow {\bar{x}}^{\mu} by which at a point P, one has g^{\mu\nu}(P)={\eta}^{\mu\nu}(P). If the metric is diagonal, the number of equations of its transformation would be much less than the case when metric is considered to be symmetric. This is because, for instance, if we count the number of equations involved in a symmetric metric trans., that is,

n(n+1)/2,

then you must fit at least this number of arbitrarily-chosen contants within the coordinates transformation at any given point to form a set of equations with the same number of unknowns and equations. But in the diagonal case, this number reduces to n, so the system of equations gets much simpler to be solved.

2- Geodesic coordinates just account for the first derivatives of metric being all equal to zero, so this way of leading to the local flatness at some point is another alternative.

3- Following 1, in the neighborhood of P the spacetime is "nearly" flat within a range that the equivalence principle issues. This is because we don't know what is meant by "neighborhood" in GR and this is only evaluated\estimated by EP. This might not be applicable for the case 2.

AB
 
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