Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[flatmaster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia#People_with_synesthesia

I found this facinating. It seems some people percieve individual symbols, characters, numbers, and letters as having their own color. Not only that, but it appears there can be any number of mixing of the senses. Perhaps this should be placed under "Credable mysteries".

The list of famous people who claim to experience this phenonynon mainly include artists, musicians and general creative types. Richard Feinman claims to have seen equations in color that were in fact printed in black and white.

Has anyone else experienced this? For thoes who program in modern software that changes the color of text when some function is entered correctly or a bracket is closed, I wouldn't be suprised if this behavior could be learned.

 

[Evo]

My older daughter is a synesthete, she sees letters as colors.

 

[rhody]

My older daughter is a synesthete, she sees letters as colors.

Evo,

Really, I am reading "The Man Who Tasted Shapes", by Richard Cytowic, (thanks to zoobyshoe) and am about 1/2 the way through. I plan to post insight, summary info in my thread, Hot can be cold, and cold can be hot, What ? https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=374522". If you don't mind, I would like to compare some of his findings with your personal experiences, if that is ok with you, private (PM) or public, your call.

I have been busy lately, now I have motivation to finish the book.

Rhody...

 

[Frame Dragger]

Synesthesia is amazing, but for all that it can be understood in terms of the neurology, it's the personal experience that is so elusive. By the same token, if you are interested in that difference in perceptions as a means of insight into neurology in general, might I recommend ANYTHING written by Dr. Oliver Sacks, but especially, 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat', which concerns agnosias, rather than synesthesia.

He had a remarkable ability to relate the experiences of others, but the clinical observations are not all current of course.

@Flatmaster: I haven't, and have only met one "natural" synesthete such as Evo's daughter. More often synesthesia occurs in the context of an altered mental state, such as use of psychadelics (usually LSD... I don't believe cannabinoids really trend that way).

That said, if you (to take Evo's example) see letters as colours, you're going to have a very different view of the world. Not a skewed one either, just different, and possibly very insightful. While this can be crippling or upsetting for some, a lot of people are able to use it to their advantage.

On a purely anecdotal note, my trumpet instructer (and now friend) claims to have the experience of percieving certain notes as having a colour. I've never had a reason to believe otherwise, and he was drawn to the music BECAUSE of that, or so he says. Considering that he previously worked in a wool-mill, and had no formal musical education... I'm not surprised.

Synesthesia is a bit odd in that you would THINK it would be a flat-out disability, but it just doesn't seem to be. In the end, it seems that peope can add tastes, or smell music. If that's how you've always seen the world, it's just different, and the issues arise from educators or others who don't understand the situation, or others who assume drugs MUST be involved.

That is, at least in part, why it's so wise to study perceptual issues such as Aura preceeding a Migraine Headache, or feelings of impending doom preceeding catastrophic illness... vs. Agnosias.

@Evo: If you do take rhody up on his offer, and 'public' is an option, I would also be overjoyed to hear almost anything you care to relate about the experience of being her parent, and her experience. It's just not possible to have too many personal accounts of something this fascinating. If not, I completely understand, and apologize for the intrusion.

 

[Evo]

All I will say right now is that my older daughter is a very gifted artist. Her teachers have said that "art is her life". She exhibted unusual understanding of shapes as early as 18 months, and drew pictures of people "thinking". For example a stick picture of a man with his legs in the air, $ signs in his eyes, and a pile of coins at the bottom. When I asked her what this picture was about, she said "He's jumping for joy because he's rich". Eighteen months old. She scared me.

 

[Frame Dragger]

All I will say right now is that my older daughter is a very gifted artist. Her teachers have said that "art is her life". She exhibted unusual understanding of shapes as early as 18 months, and drew pictures of people "thinking". For example a stick picture of a man with his legs in the air, $ signs in his eyes, and a pile of coins at the bottom. When I asked her what this picture was about, she said "He's jumping for joy because he's rich". Eighteen months old. She scared me.

Wow, talk about calling it as you see it!... you are a lucky mother (no pun). If I can ask one related question: do you you know of any other synesthetes in your or her father's (no insult, just not making assumptions) lineage?

 

[hypatia]

I tend to remember music by smells/scents, but I don't believe I have Synesthesia.

Daniel is pretty cool, you may want to check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet

 

[Frame Dragger]

I tend to remember music by smells/scents, but I don't believe I have Synesthesia.

Daniel is pretty cool, you may want to check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet

Do you mean that you associate a smell with an event or music? "Scent Memory" is very normal, a kind of associative recall. If you percieve the music as a series of scents, or blending of them... that would synesthesia.

 

[Count Iblis]

There are some online tests here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/derek_prog_summary.shtml

 

[Evo]

Wow, talk about calling it as you see it!... you are a lucky mother (no pun). If I can ask one related question: do you you know of any other synesthetes in your or her father's (no insult, just not making assumptions) lineage?

Not that we know of. All of her pictures at the age between 18-24 months focused on the eyes. If the eyes were looking up at the right, they were thinking, if their eyes were looking down at the left, they were lying, every time she drew a picture, I would ask her to interpret it and then write the meaning on the back of the picture.

One time, and my favorite, was when she drew several faces with pig snouts and curly hair. I asked her what it meant. She said "Mommy", they're pigs with hair!". Yes, yes they were.

Also, when she was 18 months, everytime we left her room, I'd be carrying her and she'd point at the wall and say "rown circo". This went on for a few weeks before I noticed that what she was pointing at was the thermostat on the wall next to her door. The thermostat was a round plastic circle.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Synesthesia is amazing, but for all that it can be understood in terms of the neurology, it's the personal experience that is so elusive. By the same token, if you are interested in that difference in perceptions as a means of insight into neurology in general, might I recommend ANYTHING written by Dr. Oliver Sacks, but especially, 'The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat', which concerns agnosias, rather than synesthesia.

He had a remarkable ability to relate the experiences of others, but the clinical observations are not all current of course.

@Flatmaster: I haven't, and have only met one "natural" synesthete such as Evo's daughter. More often synesthesia occurs in the context of an altered mental state, such as use of psychadelics (usually LSD... I don't believe cannabinoids really trend that way).

That said, if you (to take Evo's example) see letters as colours, you're going to have a very different view of the world. Not a skewed one either, just different, and possibly very insightful. While this can be crippling or upsetting for some, a lot of people are able to use it to their advantage.

On a purely anecdotal note, my trumpet instructer (and now friend) claims to have the experience of percieving certain notes as having a colour. I've never had a reason to believe otherwise, and he was drawn to the music BECAUSE of that, or so he says. Considering that he previously worked in a wool-mill, and had no formal musical education... I'm not surprised.

Synesthesia is a bit odd in that you would THINK it would be a flat-out disability, but it just doesn't seem to be. In the end, it seems that peope can add tastes, or smell music. If that's how you've always seen the world, it's just different, and the issues arise from educators or others who don't understand the situation, or others who assume drugs MUST be involved.

That is, at least in part, why it's so wise to study perceptual issues such as Aura preceeding a Migraine Headache, or feelings of impending doom preceeding catastrophic illness... vs. Agnosias.

You'd probably enjoy the book I pointed out to rhody, The Man Who Tasted Shapes, by Richard Cytowic, MD. It's an easy and fascinating read. The main 'character' (it's fact not fiction) has a taste/touch crossover. The taste of food causes him to feel he's touching variously shaped objects with different textures, from different materials. The sensations of touch vary widely according to what he's tasting. Many other forms of synesthesia are discussed too.

Cytowic has some papers online that are somewhat more technical. These are the results of his research into the causes of synesthesia. IIRC his belief is that the hippocampus is heavily implicated.

 

[StarkRG]

Ever since I heard of synethesia I've wished I'd had it. At least for numbers. Imagine seeing 6 * 4 and knowing, almost immediately that it's 24 because it's the same color as 24.

The way I've noticed I retrieve memories is through connections, every memory is cross-referenced with a huge amount of other things, time, senses, other memories you were thinking of at the time, etc. Any time one of those references is accessed this memory might come up. This means that the more senses you attribute to a memory the easier it is to retrieve. (some senses, like smell or hearing, are more directly connected to memories) By this logic adding a color to all numbers and letters and such can make recalling those memories much easier.

You could also think of it like this: generally it's your left brain that deals with numbers and words and such while it's your right brain that deals with creativity and colors and such (this isn't entirely true, but you get the idea). So if you're perceiving color in something that the left brain usually deals with then it's almost as if both sides of your brain are working on the same problem simultaneously, doubling your brain power.

I actually find it harder to imagine this as a disability than an advantage. I suppose if you have a hard time dealing with the extra information you could go a bit nutty, or just be really slow or whatnot.But really, I think it'd be wonderful. "Oh, that's a slightly blue-green angle on that triangle, it'll fit perfectly with that orange one,"

 

[Frame Dragger]

You'd probably enjoy the book I pointed out to rhody, The Man Who Tasted Shapes, by Richard Cytowic, MD. It's an easy and fascinating read. The main 'character' (it's fact not fiction) has a taste/touch crossover. The taste of food causes him to feel he's touching variously shaped objects with different textures, from different materials. The sensations of touch vary widely according to what he's tasting. Many other forms of synesthesia are discussed too.

Cytowic has some papers online that are somewhat more technical. These are the results of his research into the causes of synesthesia. IIRC his belief is that the hippocampus is heavily implicated.

I have enjoyed it, but thank. You're absolutely correct that it's directly up my alley.

@Evo: Amazing, that's not just synesthsia; by any estimation that's also genius. "Mommy, they're pigs with hair" also has to be one of the best replies of all time. I'm guessing she was utterly earnest while telling you that too! Ahh, again, lucky parent, lucky kid. Thank you very much for answering my questions.

@StarkRG: ...but what if you have trouble adding colours? Using different pathways in the brain, or different structures doesn't mean that you would find colours or smells easier to add than numbers. By most accounts, the challenges or advantages are similar to those faces by anyone.

As for recall, smell is the best trigger, and you, me, most people, can learn to associate SOME scents with specific memories. It's another form of mnemonic, just one that is much closer to the root so to speak. Everyone can benefit from mnemonics, it's just a matter of finding one that works for you, whether it's notches in leaves, or the smell of lilac.

 

[rhody]

is that the hippocampus is heavily implicated.

See, just like the ending to a movie you went and gave away the ending, lol, Now, what am I to do ? I know, imagine a hippocampus smells like a pine tree, and is prickly ! Wait, does that mean I can somehow make these extra sensations part of my daily world. That is one question that does not seem to be addressed so far. hehe.

Rhody...

 

[Frame Dragger]

To be fair, there are a LOT of things in which the hippocampus is invovled. That, more generally of course, is one of the major problems in neuropathology; not what IS invovled, but removing variables.

 

[StarkRG]

@StarkRG: ...but what if you have trouble adding colours? Using different pathways in the brain, or different structures doesn't mean that you would find colours or smells easier to add than numbers. By most accounts, the challenges or advantages are similar to those faces by anyone.

I think you may have misinterpreted my wording. I don't mean that people are able to learn to associate colors with ideas or symbols. I mean that if your brain is wired such that those ideas or symbols intrinsically have color.

An example of something like this is fruits. Most fruits have a small range of colors we associate with it. Yellow is almost instantly associated with bananas, and vice versa (I say "banana", you think "yellow"). This is so clear and obvious to everyone even one of our colors is named after a fruit (or the fruit is named after the color, not sure which): Orange. Nature has created (as much as nature creates anything, in other words, through millenia of randomness) these links to help animals distinguish what's ok to eat and what isn't. Poisonous things tend to be a sickly bright color almost like hot pink or dayglo orange.

With synesthetes things most people don't associate colors with automatically have color. It's not something that can be learned, it's something that just is. Bananas are yellow, it's not something you have to learn. You can pretend you learn it, like someone who can't see color (total color blindness, very rare) who associates the word "yellow" with the long curved fruit. Unfortunately for them the connection isn't as strong, they can't see something colored yellow and instantly think "ahh, banana!" Likewise you can tell yourself that 5 is red and that red is 5, that doesn't mean that if you see "2 + 3" you'll see it in red, if anything you'll see it as whatever colors you've associated 2 and 3 with.

 

[Frame Dragger]

I think you may have misinterpreted my wording. I don't mean that people are able to learn to associate colors with ideas or symbols. I mean that if your brain is wired such that those ideas or symbols intrinsically have color.

An example of something like this is fruits. Most fruits have a small range of colors we associate with it. Yellow is almost instantly associated with bananas, and vice versa (I say "banana", you think "yellow"). This is so clear and obvious to everyone even one of our colors is named after a fruit (or the fruit is named after the color, not sure which): Orange. Nature has created (as much as nature creates anything, in other words, through millenia of randomness) these links to help animals distinguish what's ok to eat and what isn't. Poisonous things tend to be a sickly bright color almost like hot pink or dayglo orange.

With synesthetes things most people don't associate colors with automatically have color. It's not something that can be learned, it's something that just is. Bananas are yellow, it's not something you have to learn. You can pretend you learn it, like someone who can't see color (total color blindness, very rare) who associates the word "yellow" with the long curved fruit. Unfortunately for them the connection isn't as strong, they can't see something colored yellow and instantly think "ahh, banana!" Likewise you can tell yourself that 5 is red and that red is 5, that doesn't mean that if you see "2 + 3" you'll see it in red, if anything you'll see it as whatever colors you've associated 2 and 3 with.

Alas, no, you completely misunderstood me. I was saying that a difference in perception doesn't make life EASIER. I believe I also made a very clear distinction (in that post and others) between what people CAN learn, vs. Synesthesia. Thanks for the 101 though.

 

[Pythagorean]

Ramachandran gives a good talk on it in his third lecture in this three-lecture series:

Rl2LwnaUA-k[/youtube]

 

[Frame Dragger]

Ramachandran gives a good talk on it in his third lecture in this three-lecture series:

Do you know Dr. Ramachandran?! He's incredibly well respected, but he's usually on the damned opposite coast! I saw him once at Harvard and it was amazing to see that such a bright man was also such a capable orator. I think I'd actually say he's one of my heroes, and has been since childhood and especialy after learning about Phantom Limb sensations. Talk about someone who has an ongoing impact in research, and for clinicians.

 

[StarkRG]

Alas, no, you completely misunderstood me. I was saying that a difference in perception doesn't make life EASIER. I believe I also made a very clear distinction (in that post and others) between what people CAN learn, vs. Synesthesia. Thanks for the 101 though.

Oh, ok, I see. Honestly I don't think that would be any more difficult than anything else we have to learn, it just gives us another route to learn it. Once learned it would be much faster since it would use the same routes that instinct and intuition uses, however, as I said before, it might take longer to learn to begin with.

However I could see where it might get really difficult if the words or numbers were printed in color.

While it's fairly easy to tell me what these mean: red, yellow, purple


If I colorize them wrong it makes it more difficult: red, yellow, purple

Similarly I can imagine having colored numerals would make it far more difficult to understand.

I can also imagine if there were other issues with ones brain (other learning disabilities and such) that they might be compounded by synesthesia.

Another thing that might make it difficult is that there's no tutor around that can help with it. This is mitigated by explaining the situation to parents and teachers. Since the colors associated with the various ideas and symbols differ from individual to individual there's no set way to teach it. We can, however make it easier to learn on ones own, for example, by not colorizing numbers and text very often (leaving it up to the individual to add their own colors) and by giving more time to learn things.

 

[Pythagorean]

Do you know Dr. Ramachandran?! He's incredibly well respected, but he's usually on the damned opposite coast! I saw him once at Harvard and it was amazing to see that such a bright man was also such a capable orator. I think I'd actually say he's one of my heroes, and has been since childhood and especialy after learning about Phantom Limb sensations. Talk about someone who has an ongoing impact in research, and for clinicians.

No, not personally, though I asked him if he'd by my adviser on his facebook page, lol. I also asked Christof Koch. (No, I don't expect any replies back).

 

[waht]

I think I have synesthesia.

For the longest time I thought that associating colors with letters was normal, until a pf member informed me that there is such a thing called "synesthesia." I did lots research on it and was quite surprised that it fit perfectly to what I experience as normal, and it never occurred to me that other people don't see things in color.

From my point of view, every letter in the alphabet has a unique color, and shade.

This is the color I strongly think of when I see an "A" for example:

A

I don't see a yellow visually, but I strongly think about it as yellow. For me, the letter "A" should be yellow no matter what its real color is.

Same thing happens with numbers, weekdays, months, and geometrical shapes - they all have different colors.

 

[StarkRG]

I think I have synesthesia.

For the longest time I thought that associating colors with letters was normal, until a pf member informed me that there is such a thing called "synesthesia." I did lots research on it and was quite surprised that it fit perfectly to what I experience as normal, and it never occurred to me that other people don't see things in color.

From my point of view, every letter in the alphabet has a unique color, and shade.

This is the color I strongly think of when I see an "A" for example:

A

I don't see a yellow visually, but I strongly think about it as yellow. For me, the letter "A" should be yellow no matter what its real color is.

Same thing happens with numbers, weekdays, months, and geometrical shapes - they all have different colors.

So, does it screw you up or make you think harder if I do this: A

What was wrong about what I've been saying? (keep in mind that your synesthesia is going to be different than someone else's. Difficulties you come across may be simple for others and things that are simple for others may be difficult for you.

My interpretations aren't based on first hand information, it's all from reading about it. Does having things associated with colors help or hinder? Do you get the thing where you'll see a mathematical equation having the color of the answer or the color of the parts that make it up? (I've seen reports of both, personally I want the first)

Also, I realize it isn't really seeing the color, but it's closer to how we "see" the color when we read the word: red. It's more that the symbol or collection of symbols brings forth the idea of the color.

Can you solve a math equation where the numerals and symbols have been replaced with the colors you attribute to them? In other words, if you saw 2, 3 and 5 as yellow, blue and purple, respectively, and + and = as green and orange you'd be able to correctly deduce that the following sequence ends in purple: ####

Or doesn't it work that way (in other words, it only works in one direction: symbols to colors, not the other way around: colors to symbols)?

 

[waht]

So, does it screw you up or make you think harder if I do this: A

I can distinguish that this letter is red in reality, but I still think of a yellow color, a pale yellow to be exact. It was like this ever since learning the alphabet in the 1st grade.

My interpretations aren't based on first hand information, it's all from reading about it. Does having things associated with colors help or hinder?

There is no advantage and disadvantage. Ever since finding out a proper name for this condition, I had a lunch with a psychiatrist, and he never heard about synesthesia. As far I know it's completely harmless, and so it's not even listed in DSM.

Do you get the thing where you'll see a mathematical equation having the color of the answer or the color of the parts that make it up? (I've seen reports of both, personally I want the first)

This only works in few simple cases. For example, an entire word or number will usually take the color of the first letter or a number. I could if I wish and scan individual letters and they would have different colors. But the entire sequence of characters inherits the color of the first symbol. This is true is most cases.

In few rare cases this is not so. For example, a "7" is also a yellow, and a "4" is a very light grayish/opaque color.

But if I square "7" or yellow, the result "49" will also be a yellow, and not a light grayish "4" of the first number. But "48" is a light grayish.

This color squaring and square-rooting is same for numbers 1-9. I suspect the link was made when learning the multiplication table in grade school.

Also, I realize it isn't really seeing the color, but it's closer to how we "see" the color when we read the word: red. It's more that the symbol or collection of symbols brings forth the idea of the color.

That's a very accurate description. If you read "red" you think about a red color, and can link it subsequently with the context. For me this is true for the alphabet, numbers, weekdays, months, and geometrical shapes.

Can you solve a math equation where the numerals and symbols have been replaced with the colors you attribute to them? In other words, if you saw 2, 3 and 5 as yellow, blue and purple, respectively, and + and = as green and orange you'd be able to correctly deduce that the following sequence ends in purple: ####

There is no isomorphism between colors and arithmetic. All mathematical equations, integrals, and derivatives just appear to have different colors, that's all. The actual calculations are performed normally, I think.

Or doesn't it work that way (in other words, it only works in one direction: symbols to colors, not the other way around: colors to symbols)?

It's one way. If I look at a pale yellow color, I don't think of a letter "A"

 

[Frame Dragger]

I think I have synesthesia.

For the longest time I thought that associating colors with letters was normal, until a pf member informed me that there is such a thing called "synesthesia." I did lots research on it and was quite surprised that it fit perfectly to what I experience as normal, and it never occurred to me that other people don't see things in color.

From my point of view, every letter in the alphabet has a unique color, and shade.

This is the color I strongly think of when I see an "A" for example:

A

I don't see a yellow visually, but I strongly think about it as yellow. For me, the letter "A" should be yellow no matter what its real color is.

Same thing happens with numbers, weekdays, months, and geometrical shapes - they all have different colors.

That bolded part is what people with migraines often say of preceeding aura. "Doesn't EVERYONE see specks of light and colour, or smells before they have a headache?" I'd say that's pretty good evidence that as long as the input and output match, the internal process is intersting, but obviously just... different. Hell, if kids can recover from hemispherectomies (mostly), this is hardly even surprising. AMAZING, but not surprising.

 

[Pythagorean]

Yeah, synesthesia isn't in DSM because it doesn't fit the three criteria of a mental disorder:

1) disrupting family, work, or social life
2) causes significant distress to self or others
3) behavior atypical of society or culture

You may be able to argue 3), but 3) alone isn't enough to be considered an illness and I would argue against those attempts anyway.

synesthesia is more of a neurological thing, like color blindness. It's assumed synestheses are wired differently, but importantly, that the unusual wiring doesn't negatively effect the networks involved with the broad spectrum of social and emotional tasks.

 

[flatmaster]

This has been fascinating. I have a few questions that most likely have been studied, but I'm too lazy to look for journals.

Is there any reason to believe that the letter - color connection is unique to the individual with synesthesia? For example, Waht describes the letter "A" as having a yellow tint. Is A more likely to be yellow or does each person with synesthistia lear their own system.

This brings to mind the sound - color connection. Emotions are usually said to have a color; Anger is red while sadness is blue. Are individuals with the sound-color connection more likely to experience the color that most exemplifies the mood of the music?

 

[waht]

Is there any reason to believe that the letter - color connection is unique to the individual with synesthesia? For example, Waht describes the letter "A" as having a yellow tint. Is A more likely to be yellow or does each person with synesthistia lear their own system.

Journal Link

This study shows that biases exist in the associations of letters with colours across individuals both with and without grapheme-colour synaesthesia. A group of grapheme-colour synaesthetes were significantly more consistent over time in their choice of colours than a group of controls. Despite this difference, there were remarkable inter-subject agreements, both within and across participant groups (e.g., a tends to be red, b tends to be blue, c tends to be yellow). This suggests that grapheme-colour synaesthesia, whilst only exhibited by certain individuals, stems in part from mechanisms that are common to us all. In addition to shared processes, each population has its own distinct profile. Synaesthetes tend to associate higher frequency graphemes with higher frequency colour terms. For control participants, choices are influenced by order of elicitation, and by exemplar typicality from the semantic class of colours

But in my case, the letter to color mapping is different than as explained in the paper.

"A" is light yellow, "B" is reddish, "C" is white/bluish.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Journal Link




But in my case, the letter to color mapping is different than as explained in the paper.

"A" is light yellow, "B" is reddish, "C" is white/bluish.

That makes a lot of sense, considering how tangled our senses are in each other. Sci-Am had a decent article about a study of mice, and an association between recognition of smells and SOUNDS. Not synesethsia mind you, normal association that SEEMS to increase sensitivity or recognition. (BIG maybes here, but it's just one nearly accidental study).

In fact, synesthesia, being a "different 'wiring'" rather damage, would be expected to rely on common themes that most people experience. In the same way that people with very specific injuries can be expected to experience similar phenomenoon, or that people in isolation can experience a predictable series of hallucinations... it makes sense that this would be the case as well.

Really, it raises a lot of questions about just how diffuse activity in our brains needs to be to accomplsh any given task. It seems to be a definite combination of increased activity in some regions, but the DMN sets the stage. It's... interesting.

 

[rhody]

waht,

You have NO IDEA how bad I want to jump in here. To be fair, I am at the point in the book, "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" by Cytowic where he and a colleage conduct an experiment with a real time brain scan (baseline, and then under a synesthasia stimulus) and what they discover.

Needless to say I am amazed. If everyone can be patient for a bit longer, I will post a summary of all symptoms, tests performed, and a summary of what I have grasped so far. Needless to say I am quite taken with this subject as well, and I don't even know anyone who has it, or admits to having it. I will post everything I know to date in this thread versus the one I spoke of in my first post.

I now believe that most people who have it consider it a wonderful gift, for a number of reasons I will explain in greater detail this evening.

Rhody...

 

[waht]

In fact, synesthesia, being a "different 'wiring'" rather damage, would be expected to rely on common themes that most people experience. In the same way that people with very specific injuries can be expected to experience similar phenomenoon, or that people in isolation can experience a predictable series of hallucinations... it makes sense that this would be the case as well.

Human physiology is pretty much homogeneous. People are more likely to respond similarly to similar conditions.

I'm still curious how the color to letters mapping actually occurs during childhood development. I suspect that roots of such mapping were already formed before learning the alphabet.

For instance, as a five year old you are constantly learning new vocab. If one learns what an "Apple" is and are exposed to a yellow color at the same time. That color would get mapped to a word "Apple." Then couple of years later, you are learning the alphabet in school and come across learning the letter "A" which then would conjure up images of an "Apple" and then a yellow color?

Really, it raises a lot of questions about just how diffuse activity in our brains needs to be to accomplsh any given task. It seems to be a definite combination of increased activity in some regions, but the DMN sets the stage. It's... interesting.

Yes indeed, there is an increased chatter in the brain between various areas. There are two theories as to why that happens that I'm aware of. One theory is that all people are predisposed to having the same number of neurons and their interconnections. But in case of a synesthete, some sort of chemical/hormonal imbalance causes certain neurons to fire more which leads to cross talking.

The second theory is that synesthetes are either born with, or form more neuron interconnections than on average, and that eventually causes permanent cross wiring.

 

[waht]

waht,

You have NO IDEA how bad I want to jump in here. To be fair, I am at the point in the book, "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" by Cytowic where he and a colleage conduct an experiment with a real time brain scan (baseline, and then under a synesthasia stimulus) and what they discover.

We're not going anywhere, take your time. That sounds like a really interesting book.

Needless to say I am amazed. If everyone can be patient for a bit longer, I will post a summary of all symptoms, tests performed, and a summary of what I have grasped so far. Needless to say I am quite taken with this subject as well, and I don't even know anyone who has it, or admits to having it. I will post everything I know to date in this thread versus the one I spoke of in my first post.

That's great. I'll be interested in reading your posts.

I now believe that most people who have it consider it a wonderful gift, for a number of reasons I will explain in greater detail this evening.

Rhody...

umm, it sure does amazes some people at parties.

 

[Frame Dragger]

We're not going anywhere, take your time. That sounds like a really interesting book.



That's great. I'll be interested in reading your posts.



umm, it sure does amazes some people at parties.[/QUOTE]

@bold: Beats being double-jointed or able to whistle a tune any day!

@Rhody: What waht said.

 

[rhody]

After reading framedragger's last post and waht's last two posts I will try to keep it pithy if that is possible. It is good to see everyone feels good about this, I do not wish to embarrass anyone here, including myself by asking too many questions.

What synesthetes experience and are tested for summary (about the first half of the book)

1. Mingling of two or more of the sensations (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell) in a cross modal fashion. Most commonly reported is sight and touch.

2. Synesthetic experience is constant and stable (same stimulus results in same response) for the most part. There is no known abnormal pathology known to it.

3. More women than men have it, or at least are reported to admit having it.

4. Seven of the forty two individuals studied by Cytowic had immediate relatives who had it, suggesting there is a genetic component to it.

5. There is no known agreement when those with mixed sensations of say color hearing when two individuals with that trait were compared, their experiences and descriptions were completely unique to the individual describing them.

6. Cytowic was impressed at how highly individualized the triggering stimuli usually are, explaining why the expression of synesthesia vary from person to person. It is an all or nothing trait, and some people seem to have it more than others.

7. Human imagination fill the gaps of those (without it) in trying to understand it. Those who experience it daily have trouble describing the "ineffable quality" of it, leading to bewilderment and confusion of those trying to grasp it. It must be experienced, and cannot be imparted or transferred to others.

6. Failure of tests for items 5 thru 7 above lead Cytowic to a more qualitative investigation of the triune brain, from the bottom up, from the primitive brain (brain stem structures), to the limbic system, and finally to the cortex to determine the origins) of the mixed sensations that those with syesthesia experience. Were one or more of these structures responsible, and if so which and why.

7. Cytowic designed and administered a series of tests designed to qualify what those people experiencing synesthesia were sensing, this result being what is known as "Form Constants", now believed to be a limited number of perceptual frameworks, that appear to be built into the nervous system and are probably part of our genetic heritage.

8. Synesthesia can be induced temporarily by those who use LSD. LSD exerts three physiological actions, two of which oppose one another. It enhances low-level synapses coming from the brainstem relay, the hypothalmus, and at the same time suppressing the synaptic connections between the hypothalmus and high brain areas. Third, LSD causes an overall alertness and enhancement of synaptic pathways to the limbic system, the part of the brain that gives meaning to events and is concerned with emotion and memory. This part is key, "by blocking the normal flow at a point before a unified experience is created, LSD makes it 'stick" at a detail of the perception, like when a phonograph needle skips and plays the same part of a record over and over.

9. Those with synesthasia have great memory for detail, and an indelible recollection of the synesthetic event itself.

10. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) can result in the joining of the elements of smell, taste, vision, touch and hearing, memory and emotion and epileptic synesthesia occurs in four percent of TLE events. A personal observation here, compared to people with lifelong synesthesia I can imagine it must be very frightening to suddenly be barraged with a 'mingling of the senses", whereas people who have synesthesia are used to its stimuli and effects.

11. Cytowic and Dr David Stump, an expert in measuring brain metabolism, used a cerebral blood flow (CBF) technique in which a radioactive isotope of xeon (harmless inert gas) is used to identify what areas of the brain are processing, given the blood and glucose is being delivered and consumed, with a helmet device fitted with radiation detectors (16) measuring 16 different brain regions while the subject engages in a task, in this case one that induces a synesthesia response.

12. A baseline state was taken, then two tests were conducted, one to simply stimulate the patient with a stimuli that resulted in a synesthesia response, and the second test, this time adding amyl nitrate (to boost the synesthesia response).
All three tests, baseline, normal stimuli, and normal stimuli with amyl nitrate went smoothly each lasting about eight minutes.

13. Review of the data yielded the following: baseline, low flow for someone the patients age, normal stimuli resulted in the blood flow to the left hemisphere of the patients brain at 18% less than in the baseline, that's right, than in the baseline, Holy crap ! The amount of flow is three times below the accepted flow of a normal person's. This was the first time Dr Stump (who was stumped, pun intended) had ever seen a reduced flow during the activation task (in this case a stimuli that brings on the sensation of synesthesia). The same effect was observed when amyl nitrate was administered. Synesthesia does not occur in the cortex, basically it shuts down when it occurs. The energy is being stimulated in the limbic brain, in the area where zoobyshoe describes as the hippocampus, which up to now I was under the assumption has to do with the storing of new memories, which makes sense in that people with this trait are able to retrieve them in great detail. I just didn't realize that it may be an area where a mingling of the senses occur. One point to note, the limbic system is deep enough that its metabolic activity is beyond the range of the CBF test to detect it.

14. Drugs can either stimulate or block the effects of synesthetes as follows:
The human cortex as we will see later plays an important part in either enhancing or dulling the effect of synesthasia.

15. As a rule when the cortex is depressed (reduced blood flow results in enhanced synesthesia effects) and when stimulated (increased blood flow results in a dulling or blocking effect of the sensation), Amphetimines block or dull the effects of synesthesia, while alcohol and amyl nitrate enhance it.

I will continue in a day or two with how the brain works (new view versus old view).

My fingers and mind need to rest, this is a very shorthand view of my understanding, I have left out many fine details, but the gist of the first half of the book is summarized as best as my feeble mind could convey.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wow, I really have to re-read that book. I've forgotten masses of what was in it.

Rhody, did you mis-speak when you said the most commonly reported sense pairings were sight and touch? I remember it being sound and sight.

The low bloodflow data seems to say the cause of synesthesia is neither hyperactivation nor crossover ("crosswiring"), but the result of some normal elements of brain function being inactivated.

 

[rhody]

Wow, I really have to re-read that book. I've forgotten masses of what was in it.

Rhody, did you mis-speak when you said the most commonly reported sense pairings were sight and touch? I remember it being sound and sight.

The low bloodflow data seems to say the cause of synesthesia is neither hyperactivation nor crossover ("crosswiring"), but the result of some normal elements of brain function being inactivated.

zoobyshoe,

You may be correct, I put that down without pinning it down in the book (one of the few places I didn't mark for facts), I will try again today, in any event we know that it is a mingling of two or more of the five senses.

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

I'll let you finish your research. So far the list of pertinent information you culled from the book looks excellent.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Rhody, that was actually quite cheering to read, and Zooby already hit the high notes there. You've taken a very complex subject and dissected it nicely given that you're mid-stream! I would add one element, but not a correction: All of this illustrates the plasticity of the human brain (especially in the very young), and the relativity of perception, but also that imaging has limits not just based on the technology, but what it is a researcher is looking for.

 

[StarkRG]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

 

[Frame Dragger]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

I can settle this: it's Grapheme -> Colour which is most common, or believed to be.

http://www.bu.edu/synesthesia/faq/index.html

HOWEVER... that is most commonly reported, discovered, etc. That may be due to the primary role of vision in humans. In other words, there may be a major sampling (and other) biases.

 

[StarkRG]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

This isn't one of those "maybes". Human beings are sight-primary, compared to saaaay, dogs, which primarily rely on scentt. This isn't to say we can't smell, but we do not navigate our world by it. As for the memories, scent-memory is there, but limited, and visual cues are FAR more effective than auditory cues in humans.

Compared to most other mammals we have VERY acute vision, and very poor hearing and sense of smell. The connection to memory is not relelvant to sight's primacy.

 

[waht]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvwTSEwVBfc

 

[Frame Dragger]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

 

[waht]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

 

[Frame Dragger]

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

Oh yeah, the one that keeps on giving and leaves a funny taste in your mouth. That said, objectively, he enjoys the chicken and ice-cream so... who am I to judge? That said... I am going to have a very LIGHT dinner with this in mind.

 

[rhody]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

waht,

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

Thanks...

Rhody...

 

[waht]

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

He's a researcher so I suppose he must have studied everything on the subject.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

No pressure taken. But to answer your question, I really don't know what the effects of alcohol had been because I never thought about observing this behavior under the influence, and also most of it is hard to recall

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

It's pretty fascinating. Needless to say, I'll pick up this book sometime this week.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Cytowic and Eagleman co-authored "Wednesday Is Indigo Blue: Discovering the Brain of Synesthesia".

 

[rhody]

A good collection of synesthasia links http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia/" including Cytowic's personal website: scroll down, under: Synaesthesia researchers heading.

Don't have a chance to browse any of them (in detail) now. For review and comment if you wish. Info supplied here pretty much indicates, at least to me, that this thread has plenty of life in it, even after review of Cytowic's book.

Rhody...