Medical Synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers

[waht]

In fact, synesthesia, being a "different 'wiring'" rather damage, would be expected to rely on common themes that most people experience. In the same way that people with very specific injuries can be expected to experience similar phenomenoon, or that people in isolation can experience a predictable series of hallucinations... it makes sense that this would be the case as well.

Human physiology is pretty much homogeneous. People are more likely to respond similarly to similar conditions.

I'm still curious how the color to letters mapping actually occurs during childhood development. I suspect that roots of such mapping were already formed before learning the alphabet.

For instance, as a five year old you are constantly learning new vocab. If one learns what an "Apple" is and are exposed to a yellow color at the same time. That color would get mapped to a word "Apple." Then couple of years later, you are learning the alphabet in school and come across learning the letter "A" which then would conjure up images of an "Apple" and then a yellow color?

Really, it raises a lot of questions about just how diffuse activity in our brains needs to be to accomplsh any given task. It seems to be a definite combination of increased activity in some regions, but the DMN sets the stage. It's... interesting.

Yes indeed, there is an increased chatter in the brain between various areas. There are two theories as to why that happens that I'm aware of. One theory is that all people are predisposed to having the same number of neurons and their interconnections. But in case of a synesthete, some sort of chemical/hormonal imbalance causes certain neurons to fire more which leads to cross talking.

The second theory is that synesthetes are either born with, or form more neuron interconnections than on average, and that eventually causes permanent cross wiring.

 

[waht]

waht,

You have NO IDEA how bad I want to jump in here. To be fair, I am at the point in the book, "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" by Cytowic where he and a colleage conduct an experiment with a real time brain scan (baseline, and then under a synesthasia stimulus) and what they discover.

We're not going anywhere, take your time. That sounds like a really interesting book.

Needless to say I am amazed. If everyone can be patient for a bit longer, I will post a summary of all symptoms, tests performed, and a summary of what I have grasped so far. Needless to say I am quite taken with this subject as well, and I don't even know anyone who has it, or admits to having it. I will post everything I know to date in this thread versus the one I spoke of in my first post.

That's great. I'll be interested in reading your posts.

I now believe that most people who have it consider it a wonderful gift, for a number of reasons I will explain in greater detail this evening.

Rhody...

umm, it sure does amazes some people at parties.

 

[Frame Dragger]

We're not going anywhere, take your time. That sounds like a really interesting book.



That's great. I'll be interested in reading your posts.



umm, it sure does amazes some people at parties.[/QUOTE]

@bold: Beats being double-jointed or able to whistle a tune any day!

@Rhody: What waht said.

 

[rhody]

After reading framedragger's last post and waht's last two posts I will try to keep it pithy if that is possible. It is good to see everyone feels good about this, I do not wish to embarrass anyone here, including myself by asking too many questions.

What synesthetes experience and are tested for summary (about the first half of the book)

1. Mingling of two or more of the sensations (sight, sound, touch, taste, smell) in a cross modal fashion. Most commonly reported is sight and touch.

2. Synesthetic experience is constant and stable (same stimulus results in same response) for the most part. There is no known abnormal pathology known to it.

3. More women than men have it, or at least are reported to admit having it.

4. Seven of the forty two individuals studied by Cytowic had immediate relatives who had it, suggesting there is a genetic component to it.

5. There is no known agreement when those with mixed sensations of say color hearing when two individuals with that trait were compared, their experiences and descriptions were completely unique to the individual describing them.

6. Cytowic was impressed at how highly individualized the triggering stimuli usually are, explaining why the expression of synesthesia vary from person to person. It is an all or nothing trait, and some people seem to have it more than others.

7. Human imagination fill the gaps of those (without it) in trying to understand it. Those who experience it daily have trouble describing the "ineffable quality" of it, leading to bewilderment and confusion of those trying to grasp it. It must be experienced, and cannot be imparted or transferred to others.

6. Failure of tests for items 5 thru 7 above lead Cytowic to a more qualitative investigation of the triune brain, from the bottom up, from the primitive brain (brain stem structures), to the limbic system, and finally to the cortex to determine the origins) of the mixed sensations that those with syesthesia experience. Were one or more of these structures responsible, and if so which and why.

7. Cytowic designed and administered a series of tests designed to qualify what those people experiencing synesthesia were sensing, this result being what is known as "Form Constants", now believed to be a limited number of perceptual frameworks, that appear to be built into the nervous system and are probably part of our genetic heritage.

8. Synesthesia can be induced temporarily by those who use LSD. LSD exerts three physiological actions, two of which oppose one another. It enhances low-level synapses coming from the brainstem relay, the hypothalmus, and at the same time suppressing the synaptic connections between the hypothalmus and high brain areas. Third, LSD causes an overall alertness and enhancement of synaptic pathways to the limbic system, the part of the brain that gives meaning to events and is concerned with emotion and memory. This part is key, "by blocking the normal flow at a point before a unified experience is created, LSD makes it 'stick" at a detail of the perception, like when a phonograph needle skips and plays the same part of a record over and over.

9. Those with synesthasia have great memory for detail, and an indelible recollection of the synesthetic event itself.

10. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) can result in the joining of the elements of smell, taste, vision, touch and hearing, memory and emotion and epileptic synesthesia occurs in four percent of TLE events. A personal observation here, compared to people with lifelong synesthesia I can imagine it must be very frightening to suddenly be barraged with a 'mingling of the senses", whereas people who have synesthesia are used to its stimuli and effects.

11. Cytowic and Dr David Stump, an expert in measuring brain metabolism, used a cerebral blood flow (CBF) technique in which a radioactive isotope of xeon (harmless inert gas) is used to identify what areas of the brain are processing, given the blood and glucose is being delivered and consumed, with a helmet device fitted with radiation detectors (16) measuring 16 different brain regions while the subject engages in a task, in this case one that induces a synesthesia response.

12. A baseline state was taken, then two tests were conducted, one to simply stimulate the patient with a stimuli that resulted in a synesthesia response, and the second test, this time adding amyl nitrate (to boost the synesthesia response).
All three tests, baseline, normal stimuli, and normal stimuli with amyl nitrate went smoothly each lasting about eight minutes.

13. Review of the data yielded the following: baseline, low flow for someone the patients age, normal stimuli resulted in the blood flow to the left hemisphere of the patients brain at 18% less than in the baseline, that's right, than in the baseline, Holy crap ! The amount of flow is three times below the accepted flow of a normal person's. This was the first time Dr Stump (who was stumped, pun intended) had ever seen a reduced flow during the activation task (in this case a stimuli that brings on the sensation of synesthesia). The same effect was observed when amyl nitrate was administered. Synesthesia does not occur in the cortex, basically it shuts down when it occurs. The energy is being stimulated in the limbic brain, in the area where zoobyshoe describes as the hippocampus, which up to now I was under the assumption has to do with the storing of new memories, which makes sense in that people with this trait are able to retrieve them in great detail. I just didn't realize that it may be an area where a mingling of the senses occur. One point to note, the limbic system is deep enough that its metabolic activity is beyond the range of the CBF test to detect it.

14. Drugs can either stimulate or block the effects of synesthetes as follows:
The human cortex as we will see later plays an important part in either enhancing or dulling the effect of synesthasia.

15. As a rule when the cortex is depressed (reduced blood flow results in enhanced synesthesia effects) and when stimulated (increased blood flow results in a dulling or blocking effect of the sensation), Amphetimines block or dull the effects of synesthesia, while alcohol and amyl nitrate enhance it.

I will continue in a day or two with how the brain works (new view versus old view).

My fingers and mind need to rest, this is a very shorthand view of my understanding, I have left out many fine details, but the gist of the first half of the book is summarized as best as my feeble mind could convey.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Wow, I really have to re-read that book. I've forgotten masses of what was in it.

Rhody, did you mis-speak when you said the most commonly reported sense pairings were sight and touch? I remember it being sound and sight.

The low bloodflow data seems to say the cause of synesthesia is neither hyperactivation nor crossover ("crosswiring"), but the result of some normal elements of brain function being inactivated.

 

[rhody]

Wow, I really have to re-read that book. I've forgotten masses of what was in it.

Rhody, did you mis-speak when you said the most commonly reported sense pairings were sight and touch? I remember it being sound and sight.

The low bloodflow data seems to say the cause of synesthesia is neither hyperactivation nor crossover ("crosswiring"), but the result of some normal elements of brain function being inactivated.

zoobyshoe,

You may be correct, I put that down without pinning it down in the book (one of the few places I didn't mark for facts), I will try again today, in any event we know that it is a mingling of two or more of the five senses.

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

To comment to your last statement, to be fair I haven't finished it yet, and there may be other extenuating circumstances. For now according to Dr Stump's and Dr Cytowic's findings the blood flow in the cereberal cortex is vastly reduced (abnormally so) at rest and even more so during stimulation which gives rise to more active response in the limbic area, that I said could not be measured with the CBF test at the time. I have to believe that up to date technology could do a better job on all fronts. I will do some research to see if more modern tests have been performed.

I'll let you finish your research. So far the list of pertinent information you culled from the book looks excellent.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Rhody, that was actually quite cheering to read, and Zooby already hit the high notes there. You've taken a very complex subject and dissected it nicely given that you're mid-stream! I would add one element, but not a correction: All of this illustrates the plasticity of the human brain (especially in the very young), and the relativity of perception, but also that imaging has limits not just based on the technology, but what it is a researcher is looking for.

 

[StarkRG]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

 

[Frame Dragger]

rhody, zoobyshoe: I seem to recall that it was taste and sight. In other words letters, numbers, shapes, and other symbols can not only have color but a flavor too.

Then again, maybe I was thinking of quarks...

I can settle this: it's Grapheme -> Colour which is most common, or believed to be.

http://www.bu.edu/synesthesia/faq/index.html

HOWEVER... that is most commonly reported, discovered, etc. That may be due to the primary role of vision in humans. In other words, there may be a major sampling (and other) biases.

 

[StarkRG]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Ooh, I don't know if I'd say vision is primary unless you're talking about what we notice consciously. Smell has a much more direct connection with memories (sound too, but less so). The difference is that it smell is a little more subconscious than sight.

This isn't one of those "maybes". Human beings are sight-primary, compared to saaaay, dogs, which primarily rely on scentt. This isn't to say we can't smell, but we do not navigate our world by it. As for the memories, scent-memory is there, but limited, and visual cues are FAR more effective than auditory cues in humans.

Compared to most other mammals we have VERY acute vision, and very poor hearing and sense of smell. The connection to memory is not relelvant to sight's primacy.

 

[waht]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvwTSEwVBfc

 

[Frame Dragger]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

 

[waht]

*throws up a little* Yes, that is truly intersting, but um... BLEGH!

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

 

[Frame Dragger]

Gives a whole new meaning of synesthesia as a "gift."

Oh yeah, the one that keeps on giving and leaves a funny taste in your mouth. That said, objectively, he enjoys the chicken and ice-cream so... who am I to judge? That said... I am going to have a very LIGHT dinner with this in mind.

 

[rhody]

An interesting short clip on synesthesia. The subject's favorite dish is chicken with ice-cream because it looks good literally.

waht,

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

Thanks...

Rhody...

 

[waht]

I know the video was a short one, I wonder if Dr Eagleman is aware of those who blazed the trail before him, in this case Dr Cytowic, who not only tested the patients in his book, but ran the CBF tests (and others I haven't reported on yet) to determine where it occurs in the brain.

He's a researcher so I suppose he must have studied everything on the subject.

Second, if you look at item 15 in my list, and you are of drinking age and do drink and wouldn't mind answering the question, does alcohol enhance the effects of the condition, do the sensations become more vivid, intense, etc... Only answer if you are comfortable with the question, I don't want to pressure you in any way.

No pressure taken. But to answer your question, I really don't know what the effects of alcohol had been because I never thought about observing this behavior under the influence, and also most of it is hard to recall

Third, reading more of the book today, the test subject whose blood flow was vastly reduced did not have any underlying condition that could have caused it, no lesions, cancer etc... I hope this puts your mind at ease at bit.

It's pretty fascinating. Needless to say, I'll pick up this book sometime this week.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Cytowic and Eagleman co-authored "Wednesday Is Indigo Blue: Discovering the Brain of Synesthesia".

 

[rhody]

A good collection of synesthasia links http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia/" including Cytowic's personal website: scroll down, under: Synaesthesia researchers heading.

Don't have a chance to browse any of them (in detail) now. For review and comment if you wish. Info supplied here pretty much indicates, at least to me, that this thread has plenty of life in it, even after review of Cytowic's book.

Rhody...

 

[khz]

Sorry for deviating from wherever the discussion has led to, but I have voluntary synesthesia resulting from one time marijuana use. That is, I can turn off the lights whilst listening to music, and I can have mild visual pattern/colour correlative hallucinations that conform to any changes to the music. It's AWESOME! I'm not scared of psychosis or anything because I just see it as my visual cortex getting too much electricity or blood or whatever resulting from my expectation of mild hallucinations to start (remember, it's totally voluntary). I'm curious as to how this was 'unlocked' in me though.

 

[Frame Dragger]

Sorry for deviating from wherever the discussion has led to, but I have voluntary synesthesia resulting from one time marijuana use. That is, I can turn off the lights whilst listening to music, and I can have mild visual pattern/colour correlative hallucinations that conform to any changes to the music. It's AWESOME! I'm not scared of psychosis or anything because I just see it as my visual cortex getting too much electricity or blood or whatever resulting from my expectation of mild hallucinations to start (remember, it's totally voluntary). I'm curious as to how this was 'unlocked' in me though.

Marijuana has been shown to trigger mental illness that might otherwise have remained dormant... and while Synesthesia isn't a mental illness, I wonder if a similar mechanism could be at play. More likely this is a very unusual effect that frankly, I can't even begin to explain. Synesthesia DURING drug use is not unheard of, but to become Synesthetic... I think that is. Beyond that... *baffled*

 

[rhody]

I'm curious as to how this weas 'unlocked' though.

khz,

Me too, I would say to start that you may have been on the threshold for it to happen to begin with, and the one time use of whacky weed that triggered it. They say it can run in families so check and see if other relatives have experienced it too. I am sure if you "google" on it you will find others like yourself and what effects they now experience because of it. I am no Dr, but it may be something else that sounds like synesthesia and you are putting the "synesthesia" label on it. Are the symptoms always the same, consistent or do they change in intensity and in the sensations you are experiencing ?

Do some more probing on your own and let us know what you discover.

Rhody...

 

[khz]

khz,

Me too, I would say to start that you may have been on the threshold for it to happen to begin with, and the one time use of whacky weed that triggered it. They say it can run in families so check and see if other relatives have experienced it too. I am sure if you "google" on it you will find others like yourself and what effects they now experience because of it. I am no Dr, but it may be something else that sounds like synesthesia and you are putting the "synesthesia" label on it. Are the symptoms always the same, consistent or do they change in intensity and in the sensations you are experiencing ?

Do some more probing on your own and let us know what you discover.

Rhody...

No filial history of mental illness, otherwise I wouldn't have tried it. Looking back, I regret trying marijuana as LSD seems much healthier for the brain. (note: onlyh done weed, and only once) It is foremost voluntary visuals whilst in a dark room, brought on by consciously remembering the hallucinatory experience. The introduction of music produces the seeing of the music, that materialises as changing visuals when the music changes. The whole thing started about 1 month after the weed experience. I was sitting in a train and for 30 minutes was remembering my experience. Suddenly something got unlocked, and I was having visuals of a twisting double helix, and I felt that I could morph this into whatever visual I wanted at will. I wonder whether remembering the experience tricked my brain into doing something that it did in the experience.

Now, I can only ever get visuals when I'm in the dark. I bring it on consciously and it goes away consciously. I do it for fun quite a lot. The visuals are always centred in the middle of wherever I'm looking at (I can't look away from the visuals). This is obviously because it's in my brain and not reliant on photons coming into my eyes. I can induce all sorts of visuals, which I will describe to everyone if there is demand for the information.

EDIT: Actually, to say I've done weed once is an error on my part. I did it one more time when I was on holiday with friends. Except, this yielded no hallucinations (This was post-involuntary hallucinations period).

 

[rhody]

Videos: including four by Cytowic himself, very good. He goes into detail I am reading and taking notes on in the second half of the book. He does a much better job of explaining than I possibly could, and makes it entertaining to watch and to listen to. Funny though, the number of hits on these video's is fairly low, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Cytowic mentions a memory expert who has limitless memory because of 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses. One suggestion he makes in the question and answer session in part 4 is that people who meditate and do it often are 10 times more likely to experience some form of synesthesia, all without taking LSD. He claims for most people it is there in his words, "hovering under the edge of consciousness."

Having said that after watching the video's and when I finish the book, will summarize what really stood out, was unusual or astounding to me.

http://sciencestage.com/v/19089/synesthesia:-a-film-by-jonathan-fowler.html"

Watch this short http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o39TiACe4mw" if you hear anything, you may have synesthesia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOdZGbxexz0&feature=related"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj8f_Bg8cdg"

Finally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00izxEm5kD4&feature=related"

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

I just watched those Hirshhorn videos. Very engaging.

The part about seeing auras being a form of synesthesia was fascinating for two reasons: 1.) I once saw an aura around someone, and 2.)A guy here (Pit2) once started a thread in Skepticism and Debunking suggesting this very possibility; that seeing auras might just be a form of synesthesia. A pretty good intuitive leap it turns out.

Just as Cytowic said, the aura I saw was around a stranger and was, therefore, colorless (because I had no emotional connection to her). Additionally this happened after I had been meditating regularly for a while. (For those who haven't watched the videos, he recommends that if a non-synesthete wants to experience it the best way is to meditate rather than take acid.

He said seeing auras around people or objects was the very simplest form of synesthesia, and when the colors of the aura become more complex the more you know someone it's called "emotionally mediated synesthesia".

He said that mystical "adepts", i.e. people who've meditated for years, usually have developed multimodal synesthesia. Everyone has the potential to experience it. Some people are genetically predisposed to experience it effortlessly.

 

[rhody]

I just watched those Hirshhorn videos. Very engaging.

The part about seeing auras being a form of synesthesia was fascinating for two reasons: 1.) I once saw an aura around someone, and 2.)A guy here (Pit2) once started a thread in Skepticism and Debunking suggesting this very possibility; that seeing auras might just be a form of synesthesia. A pretty good intuitive leap it turns out.

Just as Cytowic said, the aura I saw was around a stranger and was, therefore, colorless (because I had no emotional connection to her). Additionally this happened after I had been meditating regularly for a while. (For those who haven't watched the videos, he recommends that if a non-synesthete wants to experience it the best way is to meditate rather than take acid.

He said seeing auras around people or objects was the very simplest form of synesthesia, and when the colors of the aura become more complex the more you know someone it's called "emotionally mediated synesthesia".

He said that mystical "adepts", i.e. people who've meditated for years, usually have developed multimodal synesthesia. Everyone has the potential to experience it. Some people are genetically predisposed to experience it effortlessly.

Zooby,

Nice to hear your insights, what stood out to me is the guy who Cytowic mentions who has perfect memory, (due to 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses). Are these traits common to many people who exhibit photographic like memory ? Are they required ? I have to imagine that not as many folks have 5 fold synesthesia, due to the genetic component(s) suspected, implying more genetic variation in those who have it in only 1 or 2 senses.

A bit off topic, but I wanted to ask your one time opinion on this, if you are familiar with Edgar Caycee (I know, please PF Mentors, don't banish this thread to the debunking forum because of it ! lol). The famous documented psychic "Edgar Caycee" could see aura's around people, and all of his readings (with stenographer) were made with him lying in a relaxed quiet position (perfect setting for the effect). The trouble is he went further than simple uses of aura's, he "claimed to be able to remotely view or pass harmlessly" through a person's body and describe internal health conditions from anywhere on earth. My question is, is there evidence for synesthesia effects, combined with other as yet undiagnosed physical conditions that could really explain Caycee's seemingly pretty good track record at diagnosing people's health conditions ?

Rhody...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby,

Nice to hear your insights, what stood out to me is the guy who Cytowic mentions who has perfect memory, (due to 5 fold synesthesia in all of his senses). Are these traits common to many people who exhibit photographic like memory ? Are they required ? I have to imagine that not as many folks have 5 fold synesthesia, due to the genetic component(s) suspected, implying more genetic variation in those who have it in only 1 or 2 senses.

I don't think synesthesia is required for an involuntary super memory, but it could be that some form of neurological problem is. That well known character who recently passed away, Kim Peaks, was a sort of autistic savant. He remembered every word he'd ever read in his life, but the couldn't really explain the meaning of a lot of it. In the videos Cytowic characterized autism as the "opposite" of synesthesia, you may recall (during the Q & A).

My question is, is there evidence for synesthesia effects, combined with other as yet undiagnosed physical conditions that could really explain Caycee's seemingly pretty good track record at diagnosing people's health conditions ?

I have to suppose that these people had sent him letters with specific complaints. It seems that with a modicum of medical knowledge he ought to have been able to simply diagnose them from the symptoms they reported.

 

[waht]

Brilliant Rhody. I'm going get some popcorn and watch Cytowic's lectures this evening.

Just a quick question. Do the red areas indicate activity or inactivity in the brain?

 

[rhody]

I have to suppose that these people had sent him letters with specific complaints. It seems that with a modicum of medical knowledge he ought to have been able to simply diagnose them from the symptoms they reported.

It has been at least 10 years since I picked up a book about Caycee, but I am pretty sure that many of his readings were of the "blind" type with no advance knowledge of the individual or situation, just name, age and location. As you state he may have had a background in medical diagnosis, but in his lifetime he made over 30,000 readings all now available to the public in a library in Virginia Beach. Whatever skill he did have seemed to me at least, was beyond chance, and educated guessing. He has a following that exists to this day.

Rhody...