82-year-old who claims he has not had any food or water

[eveo]

It is assumed, beyond morality, that sane people do not wish to commit harm upon themselves. If you attempt suicide, you will not go to jail, but a hospital. Harm to oneself can lead to harming others, and there is a moral dimension to this. People already take part in Phase I clinical trials, that are a gamble of their lives, yes? Suicide in terminal patients is regularly assisted, something that any medical doctor or nurse knows. You can drink until you black out, smoke until you die of cancer or obstructive ling disease, and play with knives if you wish. That is a lot of freedom to do harm I think.

should still be my decision. morality is subjective.

 

[DaveC426913]

I hate how there really is no information about this beyond the basically one copied article.

Welcome to the 21st century. A world where the average attention span for any news arti ...

Hey look! Cows!

 

[DaveC426913]

should still be my decision. morality is subjective.

Sorry, 'tis the way of the world that, by definition, suicide attempts are a sign of psychological imbalance.

 

[zomgwtf]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse??

If he exhibits deleterious effects, you stop the exam and you've debunked his claim.

That's for HIM and his believers to do on their time. Not for medical staff to take part in, it's a hospital not a religious-scientist centre. I can almost gurantee if this happened here in Canada that the man would NOT be put in isolation and not fed.

If he wants to go be a science-rat for the Indian national defense then he can go march over to their headquarters. If he wants to make people in towns believe him then he should go to such towns and preach.

I don't think this is obtuse at all. I think YOUR being obtuse about the situation in regard to medical staff being involved in starving a human being.

 

[zomgwtf]

i don't understand why law goes so far as to keep YOURSELF over harming yourself.

The law prevents you from doing this? I'm pretty sure if I wanted to I could fast for a month... which legal officials will arrest me for this behaviour? Or if I want to cut myself or stab myself etc. etc.. Only if suicide is involved and even then your not breaking the law (unless you DO kill yourself) but they are attempting to give presumably well-needed help.

It's a well-known fact that many people who attempt to commit suicide don't actually want to die... as they find out when they are 2 seconds into freefall. (stat obviously from people with failed-suicide attempts) Most suicide cases are also treatable... so I think that makes it clear that suicide is a psychological issue which should be dealt with in a society.

This is vastly different however. This would be the same situation as saying to the hospital that you would like for them to kill you. (You being a perfectly normal/average person with no illnesses or disabilities) Or you telling the hospital that you have an amazing ability in that you can bleed for weeks and still live perfectly fine and so the doctors put you in lockdown and start bleeding you out until something goes wrong. --messed up.

But hey, the guys 82 years old anyways so who cares about if he dies. At least a point will be made!

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't think this is obtuse at all. I think YOUR being obtuse about the situation in regard to medical staff being involved in starving a human being.

You are behaving as if the 'first signs of deterioration' and 'death' are rubbing shoulders.

He chooses not to eat or drink, we monitor this. We detect the first signs of dehydration, we stop the test.

You're a smart guy; not acknowledging that reasonable sequence of events must be deliberate obtusity.

 

[zomgwtf]

You are behaving as if the 'first signs of deterioration' and 'death' are rubbing shoulders.

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

 

[DaveC426913]

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

But you're being absurdly unbalanced when giving credit to the opposing argument, when you say:

"So starve him until he dies?"

 

[GeorginaS]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse??

OT -- That was seriously impressive. Doubly, even. I'm in awe.

Sorry for the interruption.

 

[eveo]

Sorry, 'tis the way of the world that, by definition, suicide attempts are a sign of psychological imbalance.

what if you've simply nothing to live for? exhausted all possibilities, no interests, friends and the like. that's just unfortunate, not a sign of psychological imbalance. hmm I still think if the individuals will to live is depleted it's up to them. living in depression and medication is no life

sorry for being so off topic

 

[IcedEcliptic]

For an 82 year old? It definitely could be.

That's beside the point though. My point is that this is not something that should take place in hospitals or with doctors etc. administering.

This is very true. An old man's kidneys could fail very rapidly, during starvation and dehydration this would occur in ways that are difficult to predict. There is a reason of course, why most people are stuck with saline IV.

Let us not pretend that this is a scientific endeavor, but I don't understand the disgust that this is being medically supervised in India. Their laws are different from those of Canada, Europe, the US, and other countries. Likely that this man will not die or suffer damage, but it is a pointless exercise. If this man and Indian officials wish to waste time in this fashion, it is no riskier than Phase I clinical trials, or even Phase III. This isn't a smart use of time or effort, but it isn't criminal I think.

This man can stop at any time, which he probably has. If it is a hoax on the part of the so-called scientists involved, then there is no risk at all, yes? If it is not, then an 82 year old man might die, but I don't see that as anything unusual. Unfortunate, and immoral I think, but not vivisection of twins either.

 

[DaveC426913]

what if you've simply nothing to live for? exhausted all possibilities, no interests, friends and the like.

This is depression.

It is artificial. Humans are social and active creatures. If they have no friends, no livelihood, no interests, no supprt network then it's because they have slipped off the rails somewhere. They can be set back on the rails.

that's just unfortunate, not a sign of psychological imbalance. hmm I still think if the individuals will to live is depleted it's up to them. living in depression and medication is no life

You are suggesting that people can achieve a state of utter worthlessness (no value to anyone or anything). As well as that it is possible to achieve this state with no hope of recovery even with the best resources.

I think that, if people felt it were possible for our world to be so bleak that this can be accepted, there would be a lot MORE suicides.


No. Most of us choose to believe we live in a world where there is never no hope.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

This is depression.



You are suggesting that people can achieve a state of utter worthlessness (no value to anyone or anything). As well as that it is possible to achieve this state with no hope of recovery even with the best resources.

I think that, if people felt it were possible for our world to be so bleak that this can be accepted, there would be a lot MORE suicides.


No. Most of us choose to believe we live in a world where there is never no hope.

Eveo, if you are feeling this way, you should be helped you know? Depression is an often fatal mental illness, which is treatable in a number of ways. Why rush to death, when it comes for us all in time? "Where there is life, there is hope."

From Summer Knight by Jim Butcher: Aurora: "Wait, you don't understand! I just wanted it to stop, just wanted the hurting to stop."... response from Dresden: "The only people who don't hurt, are dead..." Aurora, "I don't understand..." [dies] DRESDEN [speaking to her lifeless body]: "Neither do I..."

Unless you've discovered that you have contracted Ebola Zaire, or something equally dire, there is no sane reason to commit suicide, outside of war perhaps, but is that sane?

 

[BigFairy]

Wow, i just read this whole thread :S

 

[phyzmatix]

For Pete's Sake what's wrong with you people? Are you being [doublyitalicized]deliberately[/doublyitalicized] obtuse?? :grumpy

I wholeheartedly agree with you Dave, don't get why there's even a discussion about it.

Wow, i just read this whole thread :S

And you didn't even mouth the words!

 

[motoroller]

Hopefully someone will post here when the results are announced. Is he still without food and, mor importantly, food?

 

[phyzmatix]

I've looked, but no luck so far. Seems as if no-one's bothered to check up on the guy in the mean time...Wonder if it will be worth contacting the Telegraph newspaper?

Any of you British perhaps? *nudge nudge*

 

[motoroller]

I've looked, but no luck so far. Seems as if no-one's bothered to check up on the guy in the mean time...Wonder if it will be worth contacting the Telegraph newspaper?

Any of you British perhaps? *nudge nudge*

What difference would that make?

 

[IcedEcliptic]

What difference would that make?

You would be able to deliver the news in a crisp accent, with excellent grammar? Perhaps he is thinking that the British get a first run of all telegraph and BBC programming. I find this very funny!

 

[phyzmatix]

You would be able to deliver the news in a crisp accent, with excellent grammar? Perhaps he is thinking that the British get a first run of all telegraph and BBC programming. I find this very funny!

Perhaps you should give it some thought before you make assumptions about me and/or how I think. It would probably be easier/more beneficial for a Brit to contact them since

1. They might never respond to a query made through their website's contact forms, whereas a phonecall makes for direct contact with their operation. Now, how much do you think such a phonecall would cost from within the UK as opposed to from without?

2. Should you decide to go for the contact form in any case, the Telegraph requires a phone nr...do you think it will help if I provide them with my contact details in Africa?

3. Even if I do go for a contact form (with my contact details in Africa) then I think it reasonable to conclude that they receive hundreds (if not thousands) of requests through their site. This possibly results in massive delays in response time meaning our friend the 82 year old's story (maybe even body) could already be cold by the time they get around to it, thereby ensuring no follow-up article worth publishing...so we're back to point (1).

Now does my reasoning, although perhaps not entirely foolproof, manage to stand up to the scrutiny of your phenomenal deductive prowess? Maybe even carry away with it a minor concession or hint of approval?

 

[rewebster]

Someone walked into his hospital room today and saw the old guy munching on a double Whopper with cheese, and a milk shake.

The old guy looked up and said, "No, no, no... this is not food or water...

...I call this stuff richalomas and tolamenis...

...so you see, it is NOT food and water!"

 

[chuck654]

Maybe he´s only russian, they can easily survive on vodka alone, they even make a soup with it...

 

[libath]

Someone walked into his hospital room today and saw the old guy munching on a double Whopper with cheese, and a milk shake.

The old guy looked up and said, "No, no, no... this is not food or water...

...I call this stuff richalomas and tolamenis...

...so you see, it is NOT food and water!"

Yeah, right? It's FAST food, it's not real food and it doesn't count. . . the shake isn't water either.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Yeah, right? It's FAST food, it's not real food and it doesn't count. . . the shake isn't water either.

Heh, the shake is agar-agar and rat turds. =) Oh, and vodka!

 

[hobbiest_2k3]

what all you guys are talking about
read first few lines of the news.

Prahlad Jani is being held in isolation in a hospital in Ahmedabad, Gurjarat, where he is being closely monitored by India's defence research organization, who believe he may have a genuine quality which could help save lives.

INDIAN DEFENCE RESEARCH ORGANITATION is not / can not be FRAUD.

look at what IDRO work:-
India's Defence Research Development Organisation, whose scientists develop drone aircraft, intercontinental ballistic missiles and new types of bombs.

Think Again Before Commenting.

br
hobbiest_2k3

 

[Borg]

what all you guys are talking about
read first few lines of the news.

Prahlad Jani is being held in isolation in a hospital in Ahmedabad, Gurjarat, where he is being closely monitored by India's defence research organization, who believe he may have a genuine quality which could help save lives.

INDIAN DEFENCE RESEARCH ORGANITATION is not / can not be FRAUD.

look at what IDRO work:-
India's Defence Research Development Organisation, whose scientists develop drone aircraft, intercontinental ballistic missiles and new types of bombs.

Think Again Before Commenting.

br
hobbiest_2k3

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

Possibly the IDRO realized that they were merely gullible, and the man was the fraud? :)

 

[rtved]

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

"quote..

The medical experts of Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) undertook an intense medical observation of 'Mataji'
...

Giving preliminary details of the exercise to mediapersons, Dr Ila Vazgan of DIPAS and Dr Sudhir Shah of a local hospital confirmed that Mr Jani had not consumed any food, or had any water or passed any urine or stool during the 15-day exercise from April 22 to May 6.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

"quote..

The medical experts of Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) undertook an intense medical observation of 'Mataji'
...

Giving preliminary details of the exercise to mediapersons, Dr Ila Vazgan of DIPAS and Dr Sudhir Shah of a local hospital confirmed that Mr Jani had not consumed any food, or had any water or passed any urine or stool during the 15-day exercise from April 22 to May 6.

Challenged to prove that he could survive without food or water, in 2003 he underwent his first hospital investigations. Then, as now, he was placed under the care of Dr Sudhir Shah, a consultant neurologist from Ahmedabad who specialises in studying people with seemingly ‘supernatural’ powers.

Question the source.

 

[DaveC426913]

Question the source.

I get the feeling you're assuming he's pro-supernatural. He may well be an avid debunker.