82-year-old who claims he has not had any food or water

[Evo]

Copuldn't someone that has been training his body for 60 years to go for prolonged periods of not eating or drinking easily go 15 days?

 

[Evo]

Quite possible.BUT in the new study He is not In charge of the investigation.

Dr Shaw is in charge of this one too.

Challenged to prove that he could survive without food or water, in 2003 he underwent his first hospital investigations. Then, as now, he was placed under the care of Dr Sudhir Shah.

Also this sheds real doubt on the "test".

Sanal Edamaruku, the association’s secretary general, told the Mail: ‘I asked to be allowed to send an independent team to survey the room where this test is taking place, but I was repeatedly turned down.

 

[rtved]

Unless his vital organs are bionic, there is no way they can continue to function without chemical sustenance.
.

If it is so it will show up in Imaging instruments like MRI.

 

[rtved]

Dr Shaw is in charge of this one too.

Nope.The Dipaps(http://www.drdo.org/labs/dipas/index.html ) is in charge.Dr shaw is a facilitator.

The person from dipaps has this to say:

Dr Ilavazhagn said: ‘Clinical, biochemical, radiological and other relevant examinations were done on Prahlad Jani and all reports were within the safe range throughout the study. He is healthy, his mind is sharp.

'What is truly astonishing, and something we have no explanation for, is that he has not passed stools or urine. To my knowledge, that is medically unprecedented.’

One can hide food under his robes but you cannot hide the stinking sh*it

Any how one has to wait for the detailed report from Dipaps.

Also this sheds real doubt on the "test".

Sanal Edamaruku, the association’s secretary general, told the Mail: ‘I asked to be allowed to send an independent team to survey the room where this test is taking place, but I was repeatedly turned down.

This claim was for the tests done earlier by Shah.For the present test Involving Dipaps Sanal Edamaruku didnt make any claim.
Check Indian rationalists association site
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/.

This association apparently did a good Job in exposing many frauds.

 

[Evo]

Nope.The Dipaps(http://www.drdo.org/labs/dipas/index.html ) is in charge.Dr shaw is a facilitator.

The person from dipaps has this to say:

Dr Ilavazhagn said: ‘Clinical, biochemical, radiological and other relevant examinations were done on Prahlad Jani and all reports were within the safe range throughout the study. He is healthy, his mind is sharp.

'What is truly astonishing, and something we have no explanation for, is that he has not passed stools or urine. To my knowledge, that is medically unprecedented.’

One can hide food under his robes but you cannot hide the stinking sh*it

Any how one has to wait for the detailed report from Dipaps.

If he fasted a couple of days first and cleared his bowels with a colonic, he'd have no stool. Even *I* know that and I am not a doctor. In cases where there is very little water, there won't be enough to urinate, or so little to just barely wet his clothing.

 

[pallidin]

'What is truly astonishing, and something we have no explanation for, is that he has not passed stools or urine. To my knowledge, that is medically unprecedented.’

Not only medically unprecedented, but medically IMPOSSIBLE.

An active biological organism will produce 'waste products"

Recycling can only exist on a very limited scale. There are significant TOXIC components of human waste that will kill the human if not eliminated.

 

[rtved]

If he fasted a couple of days first and cleared his bowels with a colonic, he'd have no stool.

Since for the first 5 days of the study he was not allowed bathing facilities he would not be able hide what he cleared from his ,errr ...Guts.

 

[rtved]

Not only medically unprecedented, but medically IMPOSSIBLE.

An active biological organism will produce 'waste products"

Recycling can only exist on a very limited scale. There are significant TOXIC components of human waste that will kill the human if not eliminated.

Correct, And that is what makes it miraculous or an ingenious fraud.

The question is how the premier Defence organisation fell for it?.

 

[Evo]

Since for the first 5 days of the study he was not allowed Toilet facilities he would not be able hide what he cleared from his ,errr ...Guts.

I am talking about before he started the test.

 

[pallidin]

Correct, And that is what makes it miraculous or an ingenious fraud.

The question is how the premier Defence organisation fell for it?.

Yeah, I hear you on that!
Perhaps some in their Defense Ministry have a less-than-scientific background, and some sort of cultural predisposition to a blind acceptance of the "bizarre"

 

[rtved]

Yeah, I hear you on that!
Perhaps some in their Defense Ministry have a less-than-scientific background, and some sort of cultural predisposition to a blind acceptance of the "bizarre"

Possible, but highly unlikely.So, one has to wait for the Detailed report on results of tests conducted and peer review.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Looks like work by Dr Shaw is very questionable.

That was the point I was making. This is ridiculous, the man has had water, and his doctor is a fraud or a lunatic. This seems like a closed case to me.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Possible, but highly unlikely.So, one has to wait for the Detailed report on results of tests conducted and peer review.

Because they have religious beliefs they wish to see confirmed, or which lead them to believe this is possible? It does not seem a stretch to posit this. There will be no peer reviewed report that does not end with, "haha, you are kidding, are you not?"

 

[pallidin]

Possible, but highly unlikely.So, one has to wait for the Detailed report on results of tests conducted and peer review.

I wonder if any international medical organization is allowed to independently study this.
Or, is this solely on "their" word.

If the latter becomes the case, it means nothing to most of us. Guess we'll see.

 

[pallidin]

Because they have religious beliefs they wish to see confirmed, or which lead them to believe this is possible? It does not seem a stretch to posit this.

Indeed, I tend to agree with you.

 

[rewebster]

you guys are all going to be sorry when he either falls over dead or starts floating around his room on his carpet

 

[pallidin]

you guys are all going to be sorry when he either falls over dead or starts floating around his room on his carpet

I'm looking forward to it. He's a hoax.
Nothing tells me otherwise (in my opinion)

 

[IcedEcliptic]

you guys are all going to be sorry when he either falls over dead or starts floating around his room on his carpet

At this point I can accept his death. :)

 

[rtved]

I wonder if any international medical organization is allowed to independently study this.
Or, is this solely on "their" word.

As far as the report is concerned ,yes.
The Defense research organisation will do a three months study on the medical reports and comeout with a plausible explanation.

Mr prahlad is ready to be subjected to more tests if the scientific community beleives it to be of benefit to mankind.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/on-fast-for-65-years-yogi-helps-military/114783-17.html?from=tn

If the latter becomes the case, it means nothing to most of us. Guess we'll see.

If for any reasons the defense organisation is not willing to share the results Mr prahlad is available(his own statement) for further study.

 

[rtved]

Because they have religious beliefs they wish to see confirmed, or which lead them to believe this is possible?

If some one from DRDO wants his religious beleifs to be confirmed by this study he exposes himself to crucifixion

It does not seem a stretch to posit this. There will be no peer reviewed report that does not end with, "haha, you are kidding, are you not?"

Wait and see.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

As far as the report is concerned ,yes.
The Defense research organisation will do a three months study on the medical reports and comeout with a plausible explanation.

Mr prahlad is ready to be subjected to more tests if the scientific community beleives it to be of benefit to mankind.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/on-fast-for-65-years-yogi-helps-military/114783-17.html?from=tn




If for any reasons the defense organisation is not willing to share the results Mr prahlad is available(his own statement) for further study.

rtved, rt Vedas? Just a guess. I recall the american CIA undertaking many ridiculous experiments of the psychic, and less benign subjects such as chemical control. Why assume that a government agency is less gullible than a single person? They are gullible with money, and face to save.

 

[rtved]

rtved, rt Vedas? Just a guess.

nope.Your guess is wrong.

I am more comfortable with something i can understand; say Ayurveda.

I recall the american CIA undertaking many ridiculous experiments of the psychic, and less benign subjects such as chemical control. Why assume that a government agency is less gullible than a single person?

If you say CIA is gullible then a similar organisation of India i.e. RAW is braindead and stupid.

This is a medical study.Plain and simple.I would once again say wait for the report.

 

[rtved]

That was the point I was making. This is ridiculous, the man has had water, and his doctor is a fraud or a lunatic. This seems like a closed case to me.

You may like to check the info on posts 88 and 94.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

nope.Your guess is wrong.

I am more comfortable with something i can understand; say Ayurveda.



If you say CIA is gullible then a similar organisation of India i.e. RAW is braindead and stupid.

This is a medical study.Plain and simple.I would once again say wait for the report.

We are all waiting, but now the question of the validity of this report is called into question. For instance, the CIA took their time in releasing their findings, and intelligence and armed services do not seek truth, but advantage.

 

[Evo]

This is a medical study.Plain and simple.I would once again say wait for the report.

A questionable medical study. I'm not holding my breath for the "results".

 

[Borg]

Ever heard of a http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke" ? If people are serious, they will post a link. Do you have one that has the current status? It's been over two weeks since he started his fast and no updates have been posted on his status. Makes people wonder what's going on.

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

"quote..

The medical experts of Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS) undertook an intense medical observation of 'Mataji'
...

Giving preliminary details of the exercise to mediapersons, Dr Ila Vazgan of DIPAS and Dr Sudhir Shah of a local hospital confirmed that Mr Jani had not consumed any food, or had any water or passed any urine or stool during the 15-day exercise from April 22 to May 6.

Count me among the unconvinced. Your own article refers to a group in India whose purpose is to expose things like this. The fact that they were repeatedly denied access is very suspicious. I don't doubt that he can fast for long periods of time but, until there is verification from multiple groups of medical professionals, I'm not buying it.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm looking forward to it. He's a hoax.
Nothing tells me otherwise (in my opinion)

You know, to dismiss something prematurely is as grievous a crime to the scientific method as to accept something prematurely.

 

[rtved]

Count me among the unconvinced.

It(the detailed report) is not yet ready.Why would you want to be convinced or otherwise at this stage.

Your own article refers to a group in India whose purpose is to expose things like this. The fact that they were repeatedly denied access is very suspicious.

The group that exposes frauds are doing a good job, perhaps the defence organisation is not comfortable with the gungho attitude of the small time people with questionable means of going about the study like the one mentioned in the link
( quote" To further prove the case, a gas was released into the room that made the woman vomit. The contents of her stomach were found to include pieces of recently-eaten chapatti and potatoes)

I don't doubt that he can fast for long periods of time but, until there is verification from multiple groups of medical professionals, I'm not buying it.

It is not just fasting; the study says nothing goes in and nothing comes out, including fluids.Why don't you read the preliminary report thoroughly before jumping into conclusions.

until there is verification from multiple groups of medical professionals, I'm not buying it.

Mr Prahlad is ready to assist if any group of scientists or medical professionals want to conduct another study.(quote from Mr prahlad:

If science and these doctors can get something useful from this study, then I am more than willing to assist," said Jani.- link:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/on-fast-for-65-years-yogi-helps-military/114783-17.html?from=tn)

 

[phyzmatix]

Here is the latest(link)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ars-Why-eminent-doctors-taking-seriously.html

Thank you very much for this update.

Copuldn't someone that has been training his body for 60 years to go for prolonged periods of not eating or drinking easily go 15 days?

I would think it possible. Which is why I really don't get that they let him go after 15 days! Surely their primary concern would've been to validate or disqualify his claim and, in my humble opinion, the only way to do that would be to keep him indefinitely. Tests can be analysed even while he is still under observation and the longer it takes them to analyse said tests, the better...

If for any reasons the defense organisation is not willing to share the results Mr prahlad is available(his own statement) for further study.

Man, I hope someone else takes him up on this. It's not as if it's a very expensive experimental procedure in his case is it? The only thing that any scientific organisation need to provide him with is a room!

You know, to dismiss something prematurely is as grievous a crime to the scientific method as to accept something prematurely.

I agree with you Dave and this is largely why I find this particular case so extremely unsatisfying. Nothing has really been achieved, we still do not know if the man's claims are truthful or fraudulent.

 

[Borg]

It(the detailed report) is not yet ready.Why would you want to be convinced or otherwise at this stage.

When a claim that is so far from accepted norms is made, it has a large burden of proof. From what I've read, this study won't meet that criteria no matter what the report says because of the lack of transparency. This doesn't pass the sniff test IMHO.

It is not just fasting; the study says nothing goes in and nothing comes out, including fluids.Why don't you read the preliminary report thoroughly before jumping into conclusions.

I have read the articles that you provided and I am not jumping to conclusions. I am questioning the scientific methodology. You are ignoring the points that people are making about the transparency of the study.

Mr Prahlad is ready to assist if any group of scientists or medical professionals want to conduct another study.(quote from Mr prahlad:

If science and these doctors can get something useful from this study, then I am more than willing to assist," said Jani.- link:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/on-fast-for-65-years-yogi-helps-military/114783-17.html?from=tn)

Yes, I read that. And your point? This doesn't change what I wrote - until there is verification from multiple groups of medical professionals, I'm not buying it. Just because he says that he is willing to participate in another study, doesn't mean it will happen. And again, it needs to be transparent.

 

[rtved]

I would think it possible. Which is why I really don't get that they let him go after 15 days! Surely their primary concern would've been to validate or disqualify his claim

It is not their concern at all to validate or disqualify his claim of 60 years.The militiray organisation's primary interest is to find "his technique" to survive without food and fluids for longer periods of time; long enough for the armed forces personnel for the logistics reach them and hence the 15 day study.

Man, I hope someone else takes him up on this. It's not as if it's a very expensive experimental procedure in his case is it? The only thing that any scientific organisation need to provide him with is a room!

There are hidden costs like insurance.The sterling hospitals(ahmedabad,India) that provided facilities for his stay wanted insurance obligations out of their way.

I agree with you Dave and this is largely why I find this particular case so extremely unsatisfying. Nothing has really been achieved, we still do not know if the man's claims are truthful or fraudulent.

There is actually noway to verify the claim of 60 years surviving.The primary interest of the study is not that.

 

[stevenb]

You know, to dismiss something prematurely is as grievous a crime to the scientific method as to accept something prematurely.

On occasion, common sense is more powerful than the scientific method.

When it comes to hoaxes and fraud, a scientist or a scientific experiment can be easily fooled. Study up on the field of deception and you'll see that intelligent people, scientists, engineers and the scientific method can be fooled quite easily. There are many examples of this.

The bottom line is this guy is a fraud. I know it, you know it and everybody with common sense knows it. You can show me 100 studies of 15 days, 100 days or 1000 days that seem to support his claims, and I will still know he is a fraud.

You can quote all kinds of good sounding scientific mottos that we all basically agree with, but it won't change the basic fact he is a fraud.

The real crime is spending time and money studying a liar. The only area of real scientific value here is any genetic predisposition or training that gives this man longer survival time without food and water, but that can only be studied once the guy is honest about what he is doing.

 

[DaveC426913]

On occasion, common sense is more powerful than the scientific method.

Ouch. I guess the Sun really does still go around the Earth...


There is a pretty wide gap between "we are all sure it's a fraud" and "so let's not bother testing our beliefs anymore".

 

[Count Iblis]

Stevenb is right. Science is so much build on honest observations/reporting etc. that scientists are not by training the best sutable persons to design experiments in which deception may play a big role.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html" would be far more difficult to fool than the typical absent minded professor:

 

[phyzmatix]

It is not their concern at all to validate or disqualify his claim of 60 years.The militiray organisation's primary interest is to find "his technique" to survive without food and fluids for longer periods of time; long enough for the armed forces personnel for the logistics reach them and hence the 15 day study...

...There is actually noway to verify the claim of 60 years surviving.The primary interest of the study is not that.

I never understood the primary concern of this study to be the verification of his claim that he has lived without food or water for 70 years but rather that he claims he can live without food and water at all!

 

[rtved]

Ouch. I guess the Sun really does still go around the Earth...

I am actually comfortable with the idea of a stationary earth.


My comonsense tells me that i cannot remain rooted to the ground with Earth traveling at 30km/sec .

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Ouch. I guess the Sun really does still go around the Earth...


There is a pretty wide gap between "we are all sure it's a fraud" and "so let's not bother testing our beliefs anymore".

True, but can you expect a study which clearly has an agenda, and a group with the same to release honest results? You do not apply scientific standards to non-scientific material. If you put this man in a cage for 30 days with no food or water (which has not happened) and have constant stream of video, that would be the start. This is not extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim, and this would require the discarding of much physics and medicine which HAS passed the scientific method. It is not enough to cast aspersions on the ridicule this garners without understanding the context.

 

[stevenb]

My comonsense tells me that i cannot remain rooted to the ground with Earth traveling at 30km/sec .

After all your study of modern science, your common sense tells you that? Wow, that is truly amazing!

 

[DaveC426913]

I am actually comfortable with the idea of a stationary earth.


My comonsense tells me that i cannot remain rooted to the ground with Earth traveling at 30km/sec .

Uh, yes. And you'd be wrong. i.e. your common sense will have led you astray. i.e. do not trust it.

What was your point?

 

[DaveC426913]

True, but can you expect a study which clearly has an agenda, and a group with the same to release honest results? You do not apply scientific standards to non-scientific material. If you put this man in a cage for 30 days with no food or water (which has not happened) and have constant stream of video, that would be the start. This is not extraordinary proof for an extraordinary claim, and this would require the discarding of much physics and medicine which HAS passed the scientific method. It is not enough to cast aspersions on the ridicule this garners without understanding the context.

OK, you are questioning the rigor of the experiment and the veracity of the claimers.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

OK, you are questioning the rigor of the experiment and the veracity of the claimers.

That is my view, yes. I question the motives, the history of this man and studies surrounding him. My knowledge of human anatomy and thermodynamics leads me to believe (but not assume) that this is impossible. Add that to the poor study construction and the history of this, and "fraud" leaps to mind. It is an aggregate of many facts, and not a single disbelief for its own sake.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

Stevenb is right. Science is so much build on honest observations/reporting etc. that scientists are not by training the best sutable persons to design experiments in which deception may play a big role.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html" would be far more difficult to fool than the typical absent minded professor:

James Randi is one of the great heroes of the age of reason, I believe.

 

[rtved]

Uh, yes. And you'd be wrong. i.e. your common sense will have led you astray. i.e. do not trust it.

What was your point?

My point is same as yours.You cannot trust your commonsense in matters of scientific enquiry.

 

[DaveC426913]

My point is same as yours.You cannot trust your commonsense in matters of scientific enquiry.

Oh.

 

[Evo]

They say they are interested in how he can supposedly go for prolonged periods without food or water, like most of the holy men that constantly fast. It's not some "trick' that you can just teach, we're talking about years and years of conditioning your body. This whole thing makes no sense.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

They say thet are interested in how he can supposedly go for prolonged periods without food or water, like most of the holy men that constantly fast. It's not some "trick' that you can just teach, we're talking about years and years of conditioning your body. This whole thing makes no sense.

Especially the water portion, which of course is not a matter of how holy or practiced you are, compared to salt, climate, and time. 15 days with NO water, and you are either dead, or dying. Possibly this is why even they admit to letting him access to water, but of course a holy man would not lie. ;) It is funny, the holiest men and women I know do not torment themselves to prove a point, they have faith and try to help others.

 

[rtved]

Especially the water portion, which of course is not a matter of how holy or practiced you are, compared to salt, climate, and time. 15 days with NO water, and you are either dead, or dying.

One will not only be dead with dehydration the symptoms of dehydration will show up all over the body.

Possibly this is why even they admit to letting him access to water,

They let him bathing facilities after 5th day' i.e. after full 5 days of total isolation.The key here is what quantities of water HE has access to.In the 2003 10 day study he was given 100 ml water for gargling and the water was collected and measured

but of course a holy man would not lie. ;) It is funny, the holiest men and women I know do not torment themselves to prove a point, they have faith and try to help others.

The accurate term to describe is Renunciate.

Do you see any trust Factor involved here?.He was monitored 24/7 with cctv cameras

Mr prahlad doesn't appear to suffer any torment here.If that is so they(Drdo) would not be interested at all.

 

[IcedEcliptic]

One will not only be dead with dehydration the symptoms of dehydration will show up all over the body.



They let him bathing facilities after 5th day' i.e. after full 5 days of total isolation.



Do you see any trust Factor involved here?.He was monitored 24/7 with cctv cameras

Mr prahlad doesn't appear to suffer any torment here.If that is so they(Drdo) would not be interested at all.

Have you ever been without water for five days? I haven't, and what thirst I have experienced over a mere 56 hours was unpleasant in the extreme. If you have access to bathing, you can drink, period, end of story. This says that he can survive for 5 days without water, which is hardly pleasant, but hardly a feat of magic or faith. Not eating does not bear discussing of course, and the trust factor is strong. I don't have access to those cameras, so really it is trust in the doctor/group handling this man, whom I do not trust at all.

 

[rtved]

Have you ever been without water for five days? I haven't, and what thirst I have experienced over a mere 56 hours was unpleasant in the extreme. If you have access to bathing, you can drink, period, end of story. This says that he can survive for 5 days without water, which is hardly pleasant, but hardly a feat of magic or faith. Not eating does not bear discussing of course, and the trust factor is strong. I don't have access to those cameras, so really it is trust in the doctor/group handling this man, whom I do not trust at all.

I edited my post above.Quantum of water provided is the key here.

The details of 10 day study did in 2003 are available at http://www.sudhirneuro.org/articles.php

In the present study The dipaps (drdo) person merely said the protocal of 2003 study is adhered to with additional tests.Pending detailed report thay could have informed about details of water access in the present study.

 

[DaveC426913]

One will not only be dead with dehydration the symptoms of dehydration will show up all over the body.



They let him bathing facilities after 5th day' i.e. after full 5 days of total isolation.The key here is what quantities of water HE has access to.In the 2003 10 day study he was given 100 ml water for gargling and the water was collected and measured

Hm.

I am going to go without food or water, but apparently I can't live without bathing or gargling...


OK, now the experiment has been compromised.