A paradox about Maupertuis' principle (symplectic viewpoint)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Maupertuis' principle in the context of symplectic geometry, particularly focusing on the extremality of the symplectic area associated with closed phase trajectories. Participants explore the implications of this principle, present examples, and raise questions about the nature of symplectic areas and their extremal properties.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes Maupertuis' principle as asserting that the integral of the tautological 1-form is extremal among integrals on phase space curves connecting the same starting and ending fibers.
  • Another participant corrects an earlier claim, stating that the symplectic area of the unit disk is between -π and π, not between 0 and π.
  • A participant questions whether there is a simple proof that the values -π and π are extremal among all surfaces bounded by arbitrary closed curves on the unit sphere, suggesting that the Maupertuis principle could serve as a proof but expressing a desire for an independent proof.
  • One participant expresses doubt about the extremality of symplectic area, comparing it to magnetic flux and presenting a scenario involving a solenoid that suggests there may be no upper limit to the symplectic area.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the extremality of symplectic areas and the validity of certain claims related to Maupertuis' principle. There is no consensus on the resolution of the paradox initially presented or on the nature of the extremal properties of symplectic areas.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves complex mathematical concepts and assumptions that may not be fully resolved, particularly regarding the nature of symplectic areas and their comparison to magnetic flux.

mma
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Maupertuis' principle states in symplectic formulation that the integral of the tautological 1-form is extremal among its integrals on other phase space curves on the given level set of the Hamiltonian, connecting the same starting end ending fiber. Specifically, for closed phase trajectories this is equivalent of the extremallity of the symplectic area of a surface expanded on this closed curve compared to the simplectic area of the surfaces expanded on other closed phase space curves on the same level set and passing across two different fibers from the fibers intersected by the phase trajectory.

For example, in the case of a 2-dimensional harmonic oscillator, the Hamiltonian is:

H=\frac{1}{2}(x^2+y^2+p_x^2+p_y^2).​

The level sets are spheres with radius R = 2H.

Now take a level set belonging to R = 1, and the following two points on this level set:

a = (-1, 0, 0, 0) and b = (1, 0, 0, 0).​

The reduced action integral (i.e., the integral of the tautological 1-form) on curves (cos t, sin t, 0, 0) and ( cos t, 0, sin t, 0) both will be extremal because the first circle lies in an isotropic plane while the second one in a symplectic plane, hence the action integral (i.e. the symplectic area of the disk bounded by these curves) are 0, and π respectivelly. The firs one is a minimum, while the second one is a maximum. And here comes the paradox. Arnold proves that the Mapertuis' principle yields unique solution (Arnold: Mathematical Methods of Classial Mechanics, p.244).

Could anybody tell me, what is the resolution of this paradox?
 
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Sorry, forget it. 0 isn't extremal. The symplectic area of the unit circle is between -π and π, and not between 0 and π.
 
mma said:
The symplectic area of the unit circle is between -π and π, and not between 0 and π.

Of course I mean unit disk and not unit circle. By the way, it's okay that among the disks bounded by great circles of the unit sphere, the value of -π and π are extremal, but is there a simple way to prove that they are also extremal among the symplectic areas of all surfaces bounded by an arbitrary closed curve on the unit sphere? (of course there is a not too simple way to prove: the Maupertuis principle itself. But it would be nice to prove this independently, because so we would get a new proof of the Mapertuis' principle for the special case of closed phase trajectories of a 2-dimensional harmonic oscillator)
 
Last edited:
mma said:
is there a simple way to prove that they are also extremal among the symplectic areas of all surfaces bounded by an arbitrary closed curve on the unit sphere?)

I have doubts that it is true at all. Symplectic area is similar to the magnetic flux of Maxwell's electrodynamics. Let's consider this: take a solenoid (connected its wire-ends to each other to form a closed circuit) and blow up it to a sphere shape. Then the wire of the solenoid will form a closed curve on the sphere and the flux evidently increases with the number of the loops of the solenoid and there is no upper limit. What is the difference if i take the integral of the symplectic form instead of magnetic flux?
 

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