A simple derivation involving the Hodge dual

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the relationship between the contravariant components of the Hodge dual of a k-form in n-dimensional Euclidean space, specifically focusing on the transition from covariant to contravariant components and the role of the determinant of the metric in this process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the initial formula for the Hodge dual of a k-form and seeks to derive the expression for its contravariant components, noting the need for a factor of 1/det(g).
  • Another participant suggests examining the properties of the permutation tensor and provides an identity involving the determinant of the metric, although the applicability of this identity is questioned by others.
  • A later reply clarifies that the Levi-Civita symbol is not a tensor, which affects how indices can be raised or lowered, and agrees with the necessity of using the determinant of the metric in the derivation.
  • One participant expresses satisfaction with the provided identity and its implications for the derivation.
  • Another participant shares a detailed proof, emphasizing the importance of not using the Levi-Civita symbol to raise or lower indices and correctly applying the determinant of the metric to arrive at the final expression for the contravariant components of the Hodge dual.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the properties of the Levi-Civita symbol and its treatment in the derivation. While some agree on the necessity of the determinant of the metric, there is no consensus on the initial identities presented, leading to a mix of agreement and contestation throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need to carefully consider the role of the Levi-Civita symbol and the metric in the derivation, indicating that assumptions about their properties may influence the outcome. The discussion remains focused on the mathematical intricacies without resolving all points of contention.

nrqed
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I am trying to prove the following result (I am using the notation of Felsager, Geometry, Particles and Fields)

The Hodge dual of a k form "F" in n dimensions (here I work in Euclidean space) gives an n-k form with covariant components

(\,^* F)_{a_1...a_{n-k}} = \frac{1}{k!} \sqrt{g} \epsilon_{a_1...a_{n-k}b_1...b_k} F^{b_1...b_k}

So far so good. Now the question is to prove that the contravariant components are given by

(\,^* F)^{c_1...c_{n-k}} = \frac{1}{ \sqrt{g} k!} \epsilon^{c_1...c_{n-k}d_1...b_k} F_{d_1...d_k}
(notice the key point that the sqrt(g) went from numerator to denominator. This means that a factor of 1/g must have been generated, in other words the determinant of the inverse metric det(g^{ij}) = \frac{1}{g} was generated, somehow. This is the key of the difficulty.

I don't know how to get this. What I obviously through initially was to simply raise the "a" indices with n-k metrics g^{c_1 a_1} ...g^{c_{n-k} a_{n-k}} but it's obvious that this won't lead to a factor of 1/det(g) which I need to make it work.

Then I realized that the epsilon symbol does not need any metric to raise or lower the indices (is that correct?) so that, I think, I can set \epsilon_{a_1...a_{n-k}b_1...b_k} = \epsilon^{a_1...a_{n-k}b_1...b_k} directly? So then, maybe I needed another set of metrics to raise the indices of F. Maybe after all I would end up with n factors of g and be able to get a determinant of g out of that. But I am stuck because if I simply change the indices of the epsilon symbol from downstairs to upstairs, I don't have any way to generate a determinant of the metric.

So I am stuck. The question boils down to : how to get from the epsilon tensor with all indices down to one with all indices up, and how to generate the determinant of g.

I hope someone can clarify this for me!

Patrick
 
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I don't have time at the moment to go through the derivation directly, but it might be helpful to look at the properties of the permutation tensor when you contract some indices with the metric.

For example, it should be immediately obvious that the following identity holds:

\epsilon^{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m} = <br /> g^{\mu_1\nu_1}g^{\mu_2\nu_2}\ldots g^{\mu_m\nu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\nu_1\nu_2\ldots\nu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})\epsilon_{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m}

(If this isn't obvious, try to see if you can convince yourself that it holds in two dimensions, then three. This should give you a feel for it and help to convince you that it holds in an arbitrary number of dimensions.) The above identity follows from

g^{1\mu_1}g^{2\mu_2}\ldots g^{m\mu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})
 
shoehorn said:
I don't have time at the moment to go through the derivation directly, but it might be helpful to look at the properties of the permutation tensor when you contract some indices with the metric.

For example, it should be immediately obvious that the following identity holds:

\epsilon^{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m} = <br /> g^{\mu_1\nu_1}g^{\mu_2\nu_2}\ldots g^{\mu_m\nu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\nu_1\nu_2\ldots\nu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})\epsilon_{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m}

(If this isn't obvious, try to see if you can convince yourself that it holds in two dimensions, then three. This should give you a feel for it and help to convince you that it holds in an arbitrary number of dimensions.) The above identity follows from

g^{1\mu_1}g^{2\mu_2}\ldots g^{m\mu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})


Perfect! Thanks! this is exactly what I needed!:biggrin:

I appreciate!
 
shoehorn said:
I don't have time at the moment to go through the derivation directly, but it might be helpful to look at the properties of the permutation tensor when you contract some indices with the metric.

For example, it should be immediately obvious that the following identity holds:

\epsilon^{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m} = <br /> g^{\mu_1\nu_1}g^{\mu_2\nu_2}\ldots g^{\mu_m\nu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\nu_1\nu_2\ldots\nu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})\epsilon_{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m}

I am puzzled.

Just to be clear, the epsilon that appeared in my first post was the Levi-Civita symbol, not the Levi-Civita tensor (also called the volume form, I think?). And, if my understanding is correct, the Levi-Civita symbol is not a tensor so one can't use factors of the metric to raise or lower the indices. Actually, Felsager gives the following relation:
\epsilon^{a_1...a_n} = \epsilon_{a_1...a_n}


So I don't like the first part of the relation you gave (the lhs equal to the middle expression). It does not sound right to me.

However, I do like the second relation at the condition of raising the indices on the rhs, that is

<br /> g^{\mu_1\nu_1}g^{\mu_2\nu_2}\ldots g^{\mu_m\nu_m}<br /> \epsilon_{\nu_1\nu_2\ldots\nu_m} =<br /> \det(g^{\mu\nu})\epsilon^{\mu_1\mu_2\ldots\mu_m}

This would do the trick!


Patrick
 
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Might as well show the final proof, in case anyone would be interested!


A crucial point that was very instructive for me is to keep in mind that the Levi-Civita symbol is not a tensor so we may not use the metric to raise or lower indices. So in order to decide where to put the factors of the metric and with what indices, we must pay attention to the tensors in the problem. First, let's start with

<br /> (\,^* F)_{\gamma_1...\gamma_{n-k}} = \frac{\sqrt{g}}{k!} \epsilon_{\gamma_1..\gamma_{n-k} \beta_1...\beta_k} F^{\beta_1...\beta_k}


Clearly, to get its contravariant components we need to raise all the indices with factors of the metric:

(\,^* F)^{a_1...a_{n-k}} = g^{a_1 c_1} g^{a_2 c_2} \ldots g^{a_{n-k} c_{n-k}} (\,^* F)_{c_1...c_{n-k}}


which is equal to

(\,^* F)^{a_1...a_{n-k}}= \frac{\sqrt{g}}{k!} g^{a_1 c_1} \ldots g^{a_{n-k} c_{n-k}}<br /> \epsilon_{c_1..c_{n-k} d_1...d_k} F^{d_1...d_k}

Now a key point is that we should not look at the Levi-Civita symbol to decide what factors of the metric to put and with what indices and so on. We may only rely on the F. So the next step is to rewrite the F on the rhs as an expression with all the indices down times the appropriate factors of the metric (we do not lower the indices, we just rewrite the F in terms of its lower idinces, that's different!), giving:

<br /> (\,^* F)^{a_1...a_{n-k}}= \frac{\sqrt{g}}{k!} g^{a_1 c_1} \ldots g^{a_{n-k} c_{n-k}}<br /> \epsilon_{c_1..c_{n-k} d_1...d_k} g^{b_1 d_1} \ldots g^{b_k d_k} F_{b_1 ...b_k}

Notice how clever we were. We never used the epsilon to raise or lower indices.
Now, finally, we may use the identity given in the previous post to finally get

<br /> (\,^* F)^{a_1...a_{n-k}} = \frac{\sqrt{g}}{k!} det(g^{\mu \nu}) \epsilon^{a_1 ...a_{n-k} b_1...b_k} F_{b_1...b_k}<br />

where the indices \mu and \nu in the determiant are only there to remind us that this is the determinant of the matrix g^{\mu \nu} , with indices upstairs, so it's the inverse of the usual metric. Therfeore, we have det(g^{\mu \nu}) = \frac{1}{(\sqrt{g})^2} . So finally, we have

(\,^* F)^{a_1...a_{n-k}} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{g} k!} \epsilon^{a_1 ...a_{n-k} b_1...b_k} F_{b_1...b_k}

which completes the proof!
 
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