How Do General Relativity Tensors and Their Indices Work?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the manipulation of indices in general relativity, specifically focusing on the properties and operations involving tensors and forms. Participants explore the implications of various mathematical relations and definitions, particularly concerning the Hodge dual and exterior derivative of p-forms.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • The original poster (OP) seeks clarification on the application of indices in general relativity, specifically regarding the Hodge dual and exterior derivative of p-forms.
  • Some participants propose that the relation involving the epsilon tensor and the Kronecker delta should be applied, but express uncertainty about handling the antisymmetrization brackets.
  • One participant points out a potential error in the OP's steps and provides a detailed derivation, suggesting that the manipulation of indices can be complex and requires careful attention to signs and terms.
  • Another participant mentions that for Lorentzian manifolds, the orientation relation has an overall negative sign, adding another layer of complexity to the discussion.
  • There is a request for further assistance from the OP, indicating that they have not returned to the thread for additional clarification.
  • Later replies build upon the previous contributions, attempting to simplify the derivation and clarify the final result, yet the discussion remains intricate and nuanced.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the complexity of the topic and the need for careful manipulation of indices. However, there are disagreements regarding specific steps in the derivation and the interpretation of certain mathematical relations, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of understanding the properties of the epsilon tensor and the implications of antisymmetrization, but some steps in the derivation remain unclear or unresolved. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the orientation relation in Lorentzian manifolds.

vidi
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This is a question on the nitty-gritty bits of general relativity.

Would anybody mind teaching me how to work these indices?

**Definitions**:

Throughout the following, repeated indices are to be summed over.

Hodge dual of a p-form X:
(*X)_{a_1...a_{n-p}}\equiv \frac{1}{p!}\epsilon_{a_1...a_{n-p}b_1...b_p}X^{b_1...b_p}
Exterior derivative of p-form X: (dX)_{a_1...a_{p+1}}\equiv (p+1) \nabla_{[a_1}X_{a_2...a_{p+1}]}

Given the relation
\epsilon^{a_1...a_p c_{p+1}...c_n}\epsilon_{b_1...b_pc_{p+1}...c_n}\equiv p!(n-p)! \delta^{a_1}_{[b_1}...\delta^{a_p}_{b_p]}\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,\,(\dagger)
where \epsilon_{a_1...a_n} is an orientation of the manifold.

Why then is
(*d*X)_{a_1...a_{p-1}}=(-1)^{p(n-p)}\nabla^b X_{a_1...a_{p-1}b}?Firstly, I believe (*d*X) means *(d(*X))?
(d*X)_{c_1...c_{n-p+1}}=\frac{n-p+1}{p!}\nabla_{[c_1}\epsilon_{c_2...c_{n-p+1}]b_1...b_p}X^{b_1...b_p}
Then *(d*X)_{d_1...d_{p-1}}=\frac{n-p+1}{(n-p+1)!p!}\epsilon_{d_1...d_{p-1}c_1...c_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{[c_1}\epsilon^{c_2...c_{n-p+1}]b_1...b_p}X_{b_1...b_p}
=\frac{1}{(n-p)!p!}\epsilon_{d_1...d_{p-1}c_1...c_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{[c_1}\epsilon^{c_2...c_{n-p+1}]b_1...b_p}X_{b_1...b_p}

Now I know that I should apply (\dagger) but I don't know how to given the antisymmetrisation brackets. Would someone mind explaining it to me please? Thank you!
 
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Ok let's take it slow because you messed up in one of the steps. This is a bit messy (but not much). So we start off with ##d(*\alpha)_{c b_1...b_{n-p}} = (n - p + 1)\nabla_{[c}*\alpha_{b_1...b_{n-p}]}## hence ##*d(*\alpha)_{a_1...a_{p-1}} = \frac{n - p + 1}{(n-p + 1)!}\epsilon_{d_1...d_{n-p + 1}a_1...a_{p-1}}\nabla^{[d_1}*\alpha^{d_2...d_{n-p+1}]}##. Before proceeding, notice that ##\nabla^{[d_1}*\alpha^{d_2...d_{n-p+1}]} = \delta^{[d_1}_{e_1}...\delta^{d_{n-p +1}]}_{e_{{n-p+1}}}\nabla^{e_1}*\alpha^{e_2...e_{n-p+1}} =\\ \frac{1}{(p - 1)!(n - p +1)!}\epsilon^{f_1...f_{p-1}d_1...d_{n-p + 1}}\epsilon_{f_1...f_{p-1}e_{1}...e_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{e_1}*\alpha^{e_2...e_{n-p+1}}##

Now ##\epsilon^{f_1...f_{p-1}d_1...d_{n-p + 1}}\epsilon_{d_1...d_{n-p + 1}a_{1}...a_{p-1}} = (-1)^{(p-1)(n - p + 1)}(p - 1)!(n - p + 1)!\delta^{[f_1}_{a_1}...\delta^{f_{p-1}]}_{a_{p-1}}##
(the ##(-1)^{(p-1)(n - p + 1)}## comes from rearranging the indices on ##\epsilon^{f_1...f_{p-1}d_1...d_{n-p + 1}}## so that it takes the right form)
so ##*d(*\alpha)_{a_1...a_{p-1}} = \frac{(n - p + 1)(-1)^{(p -1)(n - p + 1)}}{(n - p +1)!}\epsilon_{a_1...a_{p-1}e_{1}...e_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{e_1}*\alpha^{e_2...e_{n-p+1}}##. Take it from there.
 
Just to be on the safe side, let me know if you need more help and/or if the above isn't clear enough (thankfully there is very little you have to do beyond what I posted above). Also, I didn't mention this before because it isn't really important but for a Lorentzian space-time manifold, the relation you gave involving the orientation of the space-time has an overall negative sign. Finally, keep in mind that ##\nabla_{b}\epsilon_{a_1...a_n} = 0##.
 
Last edited:
I've been following this thread because I'm interested in the solution, but sadly the OP never came back. Can somebody give it anyway?
 
Sure, there's very little to do beyond what was in post #2 anyways. So we left off at ##*d(*\alpha)_{a_1...a_{p-1}} = \frac{(n - p + 1)(-1)^{(p -1)(n - p + 1)}}{(n - p +1)!}\epsilon_{a_1...a_{p-1}e_{1}...e_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{e_1}*\alpha^{e_2...e_{n-p+1}}##.

Now ##(-1)^{(p -1)(n - p + 1)}\epsilon_{a_1...a_{p-1}e_{1}...e_{n-p+1}}\nabla^{e_1}*\alpha^{e_2...e_{n-p+1}} \\ = \frac{(-1)^{p(n - p)}}{p!}\epsilon_{e_2...e_{n-p+1}a_1...a_{p-1}e_{1}}\epsilon^{e_2...e_{n-p + 1}d_1...d_p }\nabla^{e_1}\alpha_{d_1...d_p} \\ =(-1)^{p(n - p)}(n - p)! \nabla^{e_1}\alpha_{[a_1...a_{p-1}e_1]} ##

hence ##*d(*\alpha)_{a_1...a_{p-1}} = \frac{(-1)^{p(n - p)}(n - p + 1)(n - p)!}{(n - p + 1)!} \nabla^{e_1}\alpha_{[a_1...a_{p-1}e_1]} = (-1)^{p(n - p)}\nabla^{e_1}\alpha_{a_1...a_{p-1}e_1} ##
where ##\alpha_{[a_1...a_{p-1}e_1]} = \alpha_{a_1...a_{p-1}e_1}## by definition of a differential form. Thus we have the desired result.
 

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