Abraham's light momentum breaks special relativity?

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The discussion centers on the Abraham and Minkowski formulations of photon momentum, highlighting that Abraham's momentum is not Lorentz covariant, while Minkowski's is. Despite this, several experiments support the validity of Abraham's formulation, raising questions about the consistency of special relativity. Participants debate whether the discrepancies indicate flaws in special relativity or issues with experimental observations. The conversation also touches on the arbitrary nature of choosing between different momentum formulations and the importance of total energy and momentum conservation. Ultimately, the discussion emphasizes that while both formulations exist, Minkowski's is preferred for relativistic problems due to its Lorentz covariance.
  • #91
rpfeifer said:
Such a medium necessarily has a refractive index of 1.

How come?
The model with an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium but refrative index > 1 is widely used in physics literature.
 
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  • #92
Under some circumstances it may be possible to approximate a medium as having all physical properties identical to the vacuum except for refractive index (and, by implication, the speed of light in the medium). This is not one of those circumstances.

You have to ask how the medium can have a refractive index other than 1, and this necessarily implies other properties which are relevant to the problem at hand (e.g. construction from EM dipoles, which will break homogeneity and which couple to the electromagnetic fields).

It is often possible to say a lot about a material just from these sorts of self-consistency conditions (a good example is the Kramers-Kronig relationship for dispersion in optics, which relates the absorption of a medium to how the real component of refractive index varies as a function of wavelength.)ρ is not from Maxwell's equations - it is the density of the material medium, and v is its velocity. These become highly relevant when you involve the dipole structure of the medium. Their origin is from the continuity equations imposing conservation of mass/energy and momentum.
 
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  • #93
rpfeifer said:
No. It is ExH/c**2 + ρv.
You cannot ignore the material medium. It is carrying some of the momentum flux.
(Actually, this is a momentum density. You have to integrate this over the whole of the (infinite) plane wave to get the momentum.)

The model with an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium but refrative index > 1 is widely used in physics literature. For example,

Tomás Ramos, Guillermo F. Rubilar, Yuri N. Obukhov, Phys. Lett. A 375, 1703 (2011); http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.1654 ;

STEPHEN M. BARNETT, AND RODNEY LOUDON, "The enigma of optical momentum in a medium," Phil. Trans. R. Soc. A (2010) 368, 927–939;

M. Mansuripur, Phys. Rev. E 79, 026608 (2009).



Are they all doing wrong things?
 
  • #94
rpfeifer said:
Under some circumstances it may be possible to approximate a medium as having all physical properties identical to the vacuum except for refractive index (and, by implication, the speed of light in the medium). This is not one of those circumstances.

You have to ask how the medium can have a refractive index other than 1, and this necessarily implies other properties which are relevant to the problem at hand (e.g. construction from EM dipoles, which will break homogeneity and which couple to the electromagnetic fields).

It is often possible to say a lot about a material just from these sorts of self-consistency conditions (a good example is the Kramers-Kronig relationship for dispersion in optics, which relates the absorption of a medium to how the real component of refractive index varies as a function of wavelength.)


ρ is not from Maxwell's equations - it is the density of the material medium, and v is its velocity. These become highly relevant when you involve the dipole structure of the medium. Their origin is from the continuity equations imposing conservation of mass/energy and momentum.

In the total momentum ExH/c**2 + ρv, with ρ the density of the material medium, v the medium local velocity. I can suppose the medium is in the "frozen" state so that ρv=0. Theoretically such a medium is existent and such a model is widely used in the literature, including your colleagues. Obviously, this total mometum is breaking the principle of relativity. To defend your arguments, you have to deny this widely-used physical model.
 
  • #95
Dear collegues!

I hope following referencies will be interesting for you.

Sincerely

V.G.Veselago

Veselago V G “Energy, linear momentum, and mass transfer by an electromagnetic wave in a negative-refraction medium” Phys. Usp. 52 649–654 (2009)
http://ufn.ru/en/articles/2009/6/i/


Veselago V G, Shchavlev V V "On the relativistic invariance of the Minkowski and Abraham energy-momentum tensors" Phys. Usp. 53 317–318 (2010)
http://ufn.ru/en/articles/2010/3/j/
 
  • #96
"Are they all doing wrong things?"

No. All of these are good papers. When they talk about an "isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium" they mean one made up of dipoles. When light enters such a medium, the medium inevitably acquires momentum (ρv\not =0).

You specified that ρv=0, which I took to imply that your medium was "homogeneous" to the extent that it was not made up of dipoles, and hence did not couple to the light. In retrospect, you probably just made a mistake.

(Think about this: If ρv=0, the material has no momentum. Conservation of momentum then says that the EM wave still has the same momentum as in vacuum. As the total momentum tensor now only reads ExH, momentum conservation tells us that n=1.)

Also please consider that you are being very rude. All your responses are in the form of attacks. Physics is not a personal battle about whose theory is correct - it is about trying to understand how nature works. If something I say doesn't make sense to you, ask me to explain. Better yet, try to work it out for yourself. All your responses have been of the form "YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE", rather than "Please explain this". If I have made a mistake, it will be obvious when I can't explain something, or when I arrive at a contradiction. Also, I will gladly admit it (because if we found something wrong, that would be interesting and I could probably write a new paper about it). (Note: This has not happened yet during our conversation.)

Example: You could have said "I do not understand why you say this means n=1, when this model is used in papers such as <xxx> with n>1. Please can you explain?"
You said "To defend your arguments, you have to deny this widely-used physical model."
No I don't, I just need to explain what the difference is between the model that you seemed to be talking about, and the model they are using. And please stop trying to turn this into a fight between me and the rest of the world. It isn't.

On that matter, please take a closer look at the first paper you cited: Tomás Ramos, Guillermo F. Rubilar, Yuri N. Obukhov, Phys. Lett. A 375, 1703 (2011); http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.1654
This is an excellent example of how to use the total energy-momentum tensor formalism I am talking about, to show equivalence of Abraham and Minkowski approaches for an Einstein Box.My advice to you is this: Go to university and learn how to solve your own problems. I have just about run out of patience with you. You don't seem to want to learn - you just seem to want a fight.
 
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  • #97
vgv said:
Dear collegues!

I hope following referencies will be interesting for you.

Sincerely

V.G.Veselago

Dear Prof. Veselago,

Thank you for your relevant citations (the consideration of media with negative refractive indices is a particularly interesting subject).

I note that you consider only the electromagnetic portion of the Abraham tensor pair, neglecting the associated material momentum (which propagates along with the wave packet).

Thus, what you say is true and the Abraham EM momentum does not transform as a relativistically covariant object. However, this has no bearing on the usefulness of the Abraham tensor _pair_, as the total momentum p_EM+p_mat does transform as a relativistically covariant object.

Indeed, the main thrust of the current discussion is to try and explain this distinction to one of the posters here, which is why I felt it necessary to post to clarify this point.

Best wishes,
Robert Pfeifer
 
  • #98
rpfeifer said:
...
You specified that ρv=0, which I took to imply that your medium was "homogeneous" to the extent that it was not made up of dipoles, and hence did not couple to the light. In retrospect, you probably just made a mistake.

(Think about this: If ρv=0, the material has no momentum. Conservation of momentum then says that the EM wave still has the same momentum as in vacuum. As the total momentum tensor now only reads ExH, momentum conservation tells us that n=1.)
...

Suppose that there is a plane wave propagating in an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the medium material momentum should be zero and the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Please kindly indicate: Where is there a problem with this model?

In your arguments, in such case you think the field momentum = ExH/c**2, the same as in vacuum because the material momentum is zero, resulting in refractive index n=1. However, there is a mistake in your reasoning:

Because of energy-conservation law, the EM energy density with a medium is the same as that without a medium (vacuum). Thus the ExH/c**2 in a medium must be different from the ExH/c**2 in vacuum:

|ExH/c**2 in a medium| / |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| =1/n (refractive index)

Why n =1 must hold?
 
  • #99
rpfeifer said:
...
Also please consider that you are being very rude. All your responses are in the form of attacks. ..

Example: You could have said "I do not understand why you say this means n=1, when this model is used in papers such as <xxx> with n>1. Please can you explain?"
You said "To defend your arguments, you have to deny this widely-used physical model."
No I don't, I just need to explain what the difference is between the model that you seemed to be talking about, and the model they are using. And please stop trying to turn this into a fight between me and the rest of the world. It isn't.
...

Probably you misunderstood something. I just got surprised that you refuse to accept a widely-used physical model. But I think, my words "To defend your arguments, you have to deny this widely-used physical model." is a real thing you have to do; otherwise the total momentum is not Lorentz covariant. I apologize to you if my words make you uncomfortable.
----------
In pots #85, I asked you:

“Please tell me: What is the total momentum for a uniform plane wave in the medium-rest frame? According to the Eqs. (40)-(43) of your review article [Rev. Mod. Phys.79:1197-1216 (2007), http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.0461 ], the total momentum is ExH/c**2 (=Abraham’s momentum density vector) in such a case; am I right?”

You answered:

“No. It is ExH/c**2 + ρv.
You cannot ignore the material medium. It is carrying some of the momentum flux.
(Actually, this is a momentum density. You have to integrate this over the whole of the (infinite) plane wave to get the momentum.)”
“Such a medium necessarily has a refractive index of 1.”

You said a lot for why ρv not =0 for my observed "in the medium-rest frame”. I had thought you intentionally misled me. Sorry.
 
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  • #100
#98:
Good start, much more polite, but then: "there is a mistake in your reasoning" - You're back to trying to turn this into a fight again. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

"|ExH/c**2 in a medium| / |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| =1/n (refractive index)"

Think about this. You just said the density goes down by a factor of n. At the same time, the wave packet slows down by a factor of n, so the total momentum of the wave packet as described by ExH/c**2 goes down by a factor of n^2. Conservation of momentum says this has to go somewhere. That is, the material is placed in motion with total momentum
∫ |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| x (1-1/n**2) dV
unless the refractive index is equal to 1.
As you can see, you were mistaken in saying I had made a mistake.

You might want to bear in mind that I already spent a long time thinking about these problems when I wrote the review paper - it wasn't just a matter of scrawling down the first thing that came into my head. This is why I keep suggesting: Instead of saying I've made a mistake, ask me to explain to you. As well as being more polite, you'll look a lot less sloppy and/or possibly foolish.

#99:
"I apologize to you if my words make you uncomfortable."
You don't "make me uncomfortable". You just insult me. Important difference.
Now it seems to me that you are using a false apology to imply that
(i) your arguments are effective, and
(ii) I am taking them personally, and hence am worried.
Neither of these is true, but I am taking your insulting manner personally (of which this is another example) and I would appreciate an apology for that. Actually, never mind, I'm getting a bit arrogant here myself. Just try not to be so confrontational in future, OK?

"in the medium rest frame"
The rest frame before or after a light pulse enters the dielectric?
Typically, this refers to the rest frame before the light enters the dielectric. In this frame the dielectric is then placed in motion.
 
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  • #101
I'll just expand on my last comment a bit.

"I may have misunderstood you there: You may have wanted to discuss a system where the dielectric is initially in motion, then stops when the light pulse enters it."
Total momentum is also conserved in this instance, as the momentum transferred from the light to the block is sufficient to stop its initial motion. Again, however, you cannot consider the Abraham EM density in isolation, as you have to also consider how the momentum which is transferred to the block propagates. The Maxwell stress tensor tells us that it is not instantaneously spread over the entire block: It has to propagate as some sort of matter wave. Thus, in that frame the momentum of the block behaves like this:

Before the pulse enters it:
Total momentum: Nonzero. Locally: Uniformly ρv\not=0.

Once the pulse has entered it:
Total momentum: Zero. Locally: Takes the form of a matter wave, i.e. <ρv(x)>=0 but ρv(x)\not=0 for most x.
Here, v(x) represents the velocity of the medium at point x (where x is a point within the medium).
Note that for a bounded wave packet propagation of the associated matter wave is made more complicated as you must take into account ongoing interactions as the edges of the packet propagate through the material. Yet another explanation as to why you cannot consider the EM and material portions of the momentum density separately, and thus why it doesn't matter that the Abraham EM density (in isolation) doesn't transform covariantly: You never encounter it in isolation.

By the way, do you feel that we have answered your original question yet? I ask because we do now seem to be talking about something only tangentially related (i.e. whether the framework in RMP79 is consistent, rather than whether the Abraham EM expression is inconsistent with SR).
 
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  • #102
rpfeifer said:
#98:
...
"|ExH/c**2 in a medium| / |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| =1/n (refractive index)"

Think about this. You just said the density goes down by a factor of n. At the same time, the wave packet slows down by a factor of n, so the total momentum of the wave packet as described by ExH/c**2 goes down by a factor of n^2. Conservation of momentum says this has to go somewhere. That is, the material is placed in motion with total momentum
∫ |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| x (1-1/n**2) dV
unless the refractive index is equal to 1.
As you can see, you were mistaken in saying I had made a mistake.
...
Please pay attention to the model: Suppose that there is a plane wave propagating in an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the medium material momentum should be zero and the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving.

In your arguments, in such case you think the field momentum = ExH/c**2, the same as in vacuum because the material momentum is zero, resulting in refractive index n=1. However, there are two mistakes now in your reasoning:

(1) The field momentum should be DxB (instead of ExH/c**2) in a medium,
(2) Under the energy conservation, the EM energy density with a medium is the same as that without a medium (vacuum). Thus the ExH/c**2 in a medium is different from the ExH/c**2 in vacuum:

|ExH/c**2 in a medium| / |ExH/c**2 in vacuum| =1/n (refractive index) ----- (1)
---
Momentum flus conservation:

With a medium, momentum flux = DxB*(c/n)=n**2 *(ExH)/c**2 *(c/n) = n *(ExH)/c ----(2)
Without a medium (vacuum), momentum flux = ExH/c**2 * c = ExH/c -----(3)

Using Eq. (1), we find Eq. (2) = Eq. (3), the momentum-flux conservation.
----------------------
Why n =1 must hold?
 
  • #103
sciencewatch said:
Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving.
The medium rest frame is non-inertial.
 
  • #104
"Please pay attention to the model: Suppose that there is a plane wave propagating in an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the medium material momentum should be zero and the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving."

OK, how did this EM wave get into this dielectric? When it entered, it set up a wave in the dielectric, which is still there. That is, <ρv(x)>=0 but ρv(x)\not=0. And this dipole matter wave couples to the EM field.

If you do not allow for the entry of the wave into the medium at some point in the past, then the situation you describe is unphysical (e.g. infinite dielectric). This even applies to a plane wave (for which it is necessary to assume that the beam is "turned on" gradually at t=-∞, but I will not attempt to explain details of boundary conditions at infinity to you here. If interested, look it up).

"In your arguments, in such case you think the field momentum = ExH/c**2, the same as in vacuum because the material momentum is zero, resulting in refractive index n=1. However, there are two mistakes now in your reasoning:"

*rolls eyes* Here we go again.

(1) You assert the Minkowski momentum. However, for conservation of angular momentum the total momentum multiplied by c must equal the Poynting vector plus the material energy flux, i.e.
c x (p_EM+p_mat) = ExH/c+ρcv.
Note that neither the Poynting vector nor the material energy flux have ever been under debate in the controversy. These are the S terms in T^{\mu\nu}.

If we use the Minkowski momentum, then we have to have a "material" momentum of
ρv+ExH/c^2-DxB.
Do you like having a material momentum density which contains E, H, D, and B? Does this make sense to you? Sure, it might not contribute to momentum transfer, but it doesn't describe the movement of matter any more.

(2) "Under the energy conservation, the EM energy density with a medium is the same as that without a medium (vacuum)."

Don't be ridiculous. The wave packet is packed into a smaller volume, so the energy density goes up. Exactly the same as happened with momentum. If you're thinking about a plane wave, which is infinite, it still has this compression. To see this, remember that a plane wave may be infinite, but it still propagates. Therefore, consider a "chunk" of wave just about to enter the dielectric. Work out what happens. You'll see it gets compressed.

"Using Eq. (1), we find Eq. (2) = Eq. (3), the momentum-flux conservation."

There are mistakes in your working. If you fix them, you might end up with a derivation of the Minkowski momentum density - which then violates conservation of angular momentum.

If you eventually managed to fix that, you would have the material given in RMP79.

You are retracing the steps of hundreds of physicists before you. This is why literature reviews exist: To show what has already been done. Go away and read the literature. Start with all the citations in RMP79. M∅ller is particularly relevant here.

----------------------
"Why n =1 must hold?"

Because the argument I gave above is valid, and the one you gave was based on two mistakes.
 
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  • #105
DaleSpam said:
The medium rest frame is non-inertial.

Thanks, Dale, very elegant. Yep, you can construct a co-ordinate frame using GR in which space--time as you know it is rippling gently back and forth rather than the atoms of the medium.

That would be very silly, but in a good way. (The physics would be 100% correct, and absolutely no practical use whatsoever!) Nice one! :smile:

Being a GR solution, the maths involved are, of course, way beyond those presented in RMP79 (and would involve a stress-energy tensor for spacetime in the adopted co-ordinate frame, which would (by definition of the frame) couple to the EM tensor).

I doubt that sciencewatch had such a solution in mind.

(Note for junior physicists: The phrase "co-ordinate frame" has a special mathematical meaning. It comes from differential geometry, and refers to a very specific type of mathematical object, which people usually first encounter as the set of objects e^a_\mu(x) in tetrad-formalism GR.)
 
  • #106
"Do you like having a material momentum density which contains E, H, D, and B? Does this make sense to you? Sure, it might not contribute to momentum transfer, but it doesn't describe the movement of matter any more."

Just wanted to say - there's nothing wrong with such a formulation, but you do have to be very careful in interpreting it. That is:
Even if DxB contains all the momentum, the medium still moves because its behaviour is governed by ρv, not ρv+ExH/c^2-DxB.

Thus the Minkowski formulation is good for describing momentum transfer to objects in a dielectric, but not so useful for describing the motion of the dielectric itself.
 
  • #107
DaleSpam said:
The medium rest frame is non-inertial.

For a plane wave propagating in an isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium, the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving.

For such an ideal model, macro-electromagnetically speaking, there are no reasons to say the medium moves with accelerations. Don’t ask me how to set up the plane wave and how to get such a medium; I don’t know. But I do know there is such a solution to Maxwell equations, and this physical model is widely presented in physics textbooks:

J. D. Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, (John Wiley & Sons, NJ, 1999), 3rd Edition;
M. Born and E. Wolf, Principles of optics (5th edition) (Oxford, 1975);
J. A. Stratton, Electromagnetic theory, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1941);
J. A. Kong, Theory of Electromagnetic Waves, (John Wiley & Sons, NY, 1975);
W. R. Smythe, Static and dynamic electricity, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1968), 3rd edition;
D. J. Griffths, Introduction to Electrodynamics, (Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1999), 3rd edition;

to name a few.
 
  • #108
Error: The situation we are discussing is more complex than those addressed in the textbooks. Approximations valid in the problems they address may not be valid here.
 
  • #109
If you don't know how to set up a rigorous model of the wave and medium, and then take limits, that's fair enough. It is good to be able to admit your limitations.

This same limitation is why you are struggling with the A-M controversy. You need to learn how to set up this sort of more detailed model before you can understand the explanation.

Regards,
R. Pfeifer
 
  • #110
sciencewatch said:
For such an ideal model, macro-electromagnetically speaking, there are no reasons to say the medium moves with accelerations.
Conservation of momentum is a pretty good reason to say the medium moves with accelerations. The acceleration can often be neglected, as in the textbooks you cited, except when it cannot be neglected, as in the fiber bending experiment.
 
  • #111
DaleSpam said:
Conservation of momentum is a pretty good reason to say the medium moves with accelerations. The acceleration can often be neglected, as in the textbooks you cited, except when it cannot be neglected, as in the fiber bending experiment.
You are talking about media with discontinuities.

Let me restate: For a plane wave propagating in an infinite isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium, the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving.

For such an ideal model, speaking in macro-electromagnetic theory , there are no reasons to say the medium moves with accelerations. Don’t ask me how to set up the plane wave and how to get such a medium; I don’t know. But I do know there is such a solution to Maxwell equations, and this physical model is widely presented in physics textbooks:

J. D. Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, (John Wiley & Sons, NJ, 1999), 3rd Edition;
M. Born and E. Wolf, Principles of optics (5th edition) (Oxford, 1975);
J. A. Stratton, Electromagnetic theory, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1941);
J. A. Kong, Theory of Electromagnetic Waves, (John Wiley & Sons, NY, 1975);
W. R. Smythe, Static and dynamic electricity, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1968), 3rd edition;
D. J. Griffths, Introduction to Electrodynamics, (Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1999), 3rd edition;

to name a few.
------
If there are any discontinuities in a medium, there is no strict uniform plane-wave solution to Maxwell equations; I think this implication is well-known in the community of electromagetic theory. I am sorry I did not strcitly state it.
 
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  • #112
sciencewatch said:
a plane wave propagating in an infinite ...
Oops, I did miss that. I assume that you mean an infinite wave also, otherwise the rest frame would be non-inertial even for an infinite medium.

You will have to remind me: why are we considering an infinite dielectric? How is it relevant to the problem under consideration? And what is the concern for an infinite dielectric?

EDIT: actually, even for an infinite medium and an infinite plane wave a reference frame where the medium is everywhere at rest will be non-inertial. Parts of the medium accelerate wrt each other as the momentum flux at each location changes. I.e. You can consider conservation of momentum for a differential element of the medium as the fields vary across it.
 
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  • #113
DaleSpam said:
Oops, I did miss that. I assume that you mean an infinite wave also, otherwise the rest frame would be non-inertial even for an infinite medium.

You will have to remind me: why are we considering an infinite dielectric? How is it relevant to the problem under consideration? And what is the concern for an infinite dielectric?

EDIT: actually, even for an infinite medium and an infinite plane wave a reference frame where the medium is everywhere at rest will be non-inertial. Parts of the medium accelerate wrt each other as the momentum flux at each location changes. I.e. You can consider conservation of momentum for a differential element of the medium as the fields vary across it.

Let me restate: For an infinite uniform plane wave propagating in an infinite isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium, the refractive index can be assumed to be >1. Observed in the medium-rest frame, the dielectric is not moving.

For such an ideal model, speaking in macro-electromagnetic theory , there are no reasons to say the medium moves with accelerations. Don’t ask me how to set up the plane wave and how to get such a medium; I don’t know. But I do know there is such a solution to Maxwell equations, and this physical model is widely presented in physics textbooks:

J. D. Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, (John Wiley & Sons, NJ, 1999), 3rd Edition;
M. Born and E. Wolf, Principles of optics (5th edition) (Oxford, 1975);
J. A. Stratton, Electromagnetic theory, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1941);
J. A. Kong, Theory of Electromagnetic Waves, (John Wiley & Sons, NY, 1975);
W. R. Smythe, Static and dynamic electricity, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1968), 3rd edition;
D. J. Griffths, Introduction to Electrodynamics, (Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1999), 3rd edition;

to name a few.
------
If there are any discontinuities in a medium, there is no strict uniform plane-wave solution to Maxwell equations; this implication is a well-known common sense in the community of electromagetic theory. I apologize again that I did not strcitly state it.

PS:

"speaking in macro-electromagnetic theory..." --- means there is no motion for the medium as a whole because the medium is "rigid", and the total force is zero after taking average over light-wave period and space for all possible micro-forces.

"why are we considering an infinite dielectric?" ---- Thousands of examples cannot validate a theory; however, to negate it, one is enough. For example, when I write down a code for solving differential equations, I don't know if it is correct, and I usually use a simple analytically solvable equation to check first.

I can be sure that you know all these simple things. Since you ask me to say, I have to say.
 
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  • #114
sciencewatch said:
"why are we considering an infinite dielectric?" ---- Thousands of examples cannot validate a theory; however, to negate it, one is enough. For example, when I write down a code for solving differential equations, I don't know if it is correct, and I usually use a simple analytically solvable equation to check first.
OK, so what theory does this example negate and how?
 
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  • #115
rpfeifer said:
Thanks, Dale, very elegant. Yep, you can construct a co-ordinate frame using GR in which space--time as you know it is rippling gently back and forth rather than the atoms of the medium.
It took me a while, but I got what you said here. I wish I could take credit for such a subtle idea. I was thinking of a finite block of dielectric and just the fact that radiation pressure would accelerate it as the wave entered. But your idea applies even for the infinite dielectric.
 
  • #116
DaleSpam said:
OK, so what theory does this example negate and how?

Suppose that an infinite uniform plane wave propagates in an infinite isotropic, homogeneous, non-conducting, no-loss, non-dispersive, ideal medium with a refractive index >1. Speaking in macro-electromagnetic theory, the medium-rest frame is an inertial frame.

For such an ideal plane-wave model, the medium is assumed to be "rigid", and the total force acting on the whole medium is zero after taking average over time (in one light-wave period) and space (in one wavelength) for all possible micro-scale forces. In other words, there are no accelerations for the medium. Don’t ask me how to set up the plane wave and how to get such a medium; I don’t know. But I do know there is such a solution to Maxwell equations, and this physical model is widely presented in physics textbooks:

J. D. Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, (John Wiley & Sons, NJ, 1999), 3rd Edition;
M. Born and E. Wolf, Principles of optics (5th edition) (Oxford, 1975);
J. A. Stratton, Electromagnetic theory, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1941);
J. A. Kong, Theory of Electromagnetic Waves, (John Wiley & Sons, NY, 1975);
W. R. Smythe, Static and dynamic electricity, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1968), 3rd edition;
D. J. Griffths, Introduction to Electrodynamics, (Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1999), 3rd edition;

to name a few.

************************
“OK, so what theory does this example negate and how?”

The author [Rev. Mod. Phys.79:1197-1216 (2007), http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.0461 ] claims that the total energy-momentum tensor is “uniquely determined by consistency with special relativity”. However, if applying their total-tensor model to the ideal plane wave described above, we obtain the total momentum = ExH/c**2 (=Abraham’s momentum density vector) from their Eqs. (40)-(43), or Eq. (33) by setting the dielectric velocity v = 0, and ExH/c**2 cannot be used to constitute a Lorentz covariant momentum-energy 4-vector. Therefore, the total-tensor model does break the special relativity, unless they have strong arguments to refute the above ideal plane-wave model.

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To the authors [Rev. Mod. Phys.79:1197-1216 (2007)]: Please check the last term of Eq. (33), “+ ExM/c**2”, and make sure if there is a sign typo: – ?. Seems not consistent with Eq. (31) and Eqs. (40)-(43).

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PS:

In post #70, the author of Rev. Mod. Phys.79:1197-1216 (2007) (henceforth RMP79) claims:

In fact, the main thrust of Sec. VIII of RMP79 is that once the material properties of the dielectric are specified, the total momentum tensor is uniquely determined by

(i) consistency with special relativity, and
(ii) conservation of linear and angular momentum.

This leads to two important conclusions:

(a) No valid combination of EM and material energy-momentum tensors can break special relativity. If you are using a combination of tensors which appears to break this, then your choice of tensors is incorrect (usually, the material tensor is incorrect or missing). Note that I have never yet seen a fully relativistic formulation of the material counterpart tensors written down anywhere in the literature - even those given in RMP79 are valid only for media moving at v<<c, though the full expressions could be obtained from Eqs. (33)-(34).

(b) As the _total_ energy-momentum tensor is uniquely fixed by (i) and (ii) above, any division into components necessarily yields the same total tensor, and thus the same physical behaviours. That is, Abraham and Minkowski correspond to the same T, and thus the same physics.
 
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  • #117
First, you are making a whole bunch of unphysical assumptions, so even if your conclusion is correct, it could serve as a reducto ad absurdum disproof of your assumptions rather than a disproof of the total tensor model. However, I don't think that you have reached that level yet:
sciencewatch said:
However, if applying their total-tensor model to the ideal plane wave described above, we obtain the total momentum = ExH/c**2 (=Abraham’s momentum density vector) from their Eqs. (40)-(43), or Eq. (33) by setting the dielectric velocity v = 0, and ExH/c**2 cannot be used to constitute a Lorentz covariant momentum-energy 4-vector.
Why not? Can you form this into a proper total momentum tensor and show that boosting it to some other frame v<<c gives the wrong total momentum?
 
  • #118
DaleSpam said:
The medium rest frame is non-inertial.

Just to make sure I'm following... The medium rest frame will be non-inertial while a force is being exchanged with any particle in the media, right? For that matter, the media rest frame will also be non-inertial, won't it?

However, once all forces are exchanged (or balanced) both the medium and media frames will be inertial and the relationship between the rest frames gives the classical Fizeau result (medium partially dragged by the media)
 
  • #119
PhilDSP said:
The medium rest frame will be non-inertial while a force is being exchanged with any particle in the media, right?
Yes.

PhilDSP said:
However, once all forces are exchanged (or balanced) both the medium and media frames will be inertial
Yes, provided the material is perfectly rigid so that only the 0 total momentum (net force) is important and not the non-zero local momentum flux (internal forces).
 
  • #120
sciencewatch said:
But I do know there is such a solution to Maxwell equations, and this physical model is widely presented in physics textbooks:

J. D. Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, (John Wiley & Sons, NJ, 1999), 3rd Edition;
M. Born and E. Wolf, Principles of optics (5th edition) (Oxford, 1975);
J. A. Stratton, Electromagnetic theory, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1941);
J. A. Kong, Theory of Electromagnetic Waves, (John Wiley & Sons, NY, 1975);
W. R. Smythe, Static and dynamic electricity, (McGraw-Hill, NY, 1968), 3rd edition;
D. J. Griffths, Introduction to Electrodynamics, (Prentice-Hall, NJ, 1999), 3rd edition;

to name a few.
FYI, although it is slightly off-topic, just in case you were unaware I wanted to let you know that ideal gasses are also not physical, although they are even more widely presented in textbooks.

Oh, also, rigid bodies aren't really rigid.

And ideal capacitors, inductors, and batteries don't actually exist.

And there aren't any perfect crystals.

There aren't any classical point particles either.

And Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy too.
 

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